Good morning,

I have been reading through a ton of posts here and I love hearing all the stories of bonding attempts. What I am missing are the resolutions! Has anybody out there who has had a horrible start of bonding (specifically of two females perhaps) that ultimately ended up with a strong loving bond? I have been working on two extremely sweet and wonderful buns for almost a year now on and off and feel hopeless in my effort.

Yes, they are both spayed and have shown absolutely no aggression to either me or my husband. They are wonderful, smart and full of kisses to both of us. They have free run of the house and are littler box trained however we obviously need to keep them seperate so we swap them every other night - 1 gets the whole house, the other gets one room with the door closed. This system is wearing on us and is not what we had imagined when we took on both of them who were totally bonded when we first brought them home.

I have a ton of pics of them snuggling together until one fight broke out (after they were spayed at about 7 months or so) and they have never recovered emotionally.

Over the last many months I have had many bonding dates. Everything from stressful car rides, sitting in a box on top of the washing machine etc... The do relatively well together, one will groom the other, but ultimately they will fight after a long session. I break them up imediately and neither has ever been injured - except for me (now I use gloves!).

It appears to be very territorial. Like I mentioned, we switch them every other day and as soon as they get to their new location (either run of house or the closed room) they 'chin' everything like crazy. When I have them on dates, even good ones, if there are two cardboard boxes on the ground and one is taking refuge in one of them, the other will squeeze in trying to become queen of the castle! This happens over and over again - sometimes it is innocent and they just end up squished together, but sometimes they will nip and fight quickly.

I am always tempted to let them have little fights with each other to work it out BUT because I know how severely I was bit when trying to break them up that one time many many months ago I am too scared to let them hurt each other.

Anyway, with all this babbling I believe I am trying to ask this one question: Is there hope here?

Do you think I shouuld keep going? Are their other tactics you can recomend? Are there any foods or vitamins that might help calm them before dates? Anything anybody has to offer would be so appreciated and might give me the kick in the butt to try another few weeks of dates.

Also, to give you some more background, I had a beautiful little dutch rabbit for 8 years who was also free running who I loved more than anything. I am not new to rabbits but I am new to bonding.

Please help

-Jackie

 

Riley (white), Dexter (black) - Trying to get back to their initial friendship from a year ago...

 

Such cute girls you have. I'm sorry to hear that you have been struggling with this for so long. Do they both start the fight or does one initiate it more than the other?

Right now, I'm doing sessions as well with two males who fight. I have given up on stress sessions, as it doesn't seem to work on them. Instead, I have them on my lap where I pet them and force them to snuggle up against each other. It seems to be working so far. Have you tried this?

You might want to try Bach's Rescue Remedy for pets - it has a calming effect. I used it a few times, but have run out. Also, you could use lavender aromatherapy oil in the room where you do the sessions, which has a calming effect on animals as well.

Darnit! Just lost my post again!

The short of what I was saying: I would stop with free range until after the are bonded. They have too much territory right now. Side by side pens will keep them contained and reduce their freedom enough so they no longer feel they "rule the house" and this will force them to be in close proximity to each other... I know this isn't what you (or they!) want, but desperate times call for desperate measures. What you're doing so far is obviously not working. This may sound even more extreme to you, but is there another house where you could keep them (for the time being) for neutral bonding sessions? Or have you looked into boarding at a rescue for professional bonding?

I think this might be a really good thread for you to read: http://www.binkybunny.com/FORUM/tab...fault.aspx
It's about two sisters who were spayed and then didn't get along. They're happily bonded now though!

When you're looking through threads, look for the ones with BONDED in the title - those are the ones that have been resolved into a full bond.

Thank you guys so much for the feedback and encouragement. I don't have time to reply right this moment, but I do have some specific questions that I will hopefully be able to put together by the end of the day.

Thanks to this forum I am feeling ready to give it another go!

-Jackie

Hey guys,

 

Beka - I am intrigued by the idea of putting them in close proximity in 'pens' as you called it. Do you mean in cages specifically? I don't own any cages and would love to do that for a couple of weeks but I worry about the price. Do you know if any shelters would ever rent them out or some other solution to this?

 

Because of this forum I have officially started trying to bond them again tonight. I will document it all here (even if nobody is reading!) just to keep me motivated. Any advice, comments, encouragement will be greatly appreciated throughout the process!

 

Bonding Session # 1:

To get things started again we decided to put them in a small cardboard box with a towel on the bottom and drive around with them in the car for about 20 minutes (my husband, me and the 2 girl buns). They snuggled together the whole time as they always do in the car. I don't even get worried that they will nip each other as it they never have done anything but hide in each other when they are nervous.

 

Then, we brought them into the 'neutral' space, the tile floor kitchen, gated in on a towel. They were both still scared from the car ride and did little more than stay pretty still with some occasional looking around. My husband pet both of them while they were lying next to each other for about 10 minutes and then we just watched them. They did not do much. Because this was the first time in a while and it was going well we called it a day about 15 minutes later to end on a good note.

 

So far so good BUT we have been here many times before and I would expect as much. Tomorrow is another day and I will keep you posted.

 

Thanks for being an ear!

 

 

-Jackie

hi Jackie,

females are highly territorial even more so than male rabbits and after all this time and failed attempts neutral space is of the utmost importance in your bonding sessions.

I would do no more sessions at all in your house at this point because they have each made it their own and have been there for so long and have fought. The only spot for sessions in your house would be your bathtub until they advance in their relationship.

Can you use your car, parked, as a bonding space to get off to a start with them? Or do you have any other spot such as a garage, a friend's place or a shed? You could even phone an animal rescue group near you and ask if they would allow you to have some bonding sessions on their premises.

As far as enclosures are concerned, they are always in demand especially with shelters so unfortunately they cost. But a member in here has manufactured a pen using inexpensive wire fencing for an interim stage in her bonding. You could do just that, if you are willing to put up with the look for a time. You would have to make it sturdy with wooden posts and high enough so there couldn't be any prison-breaks. ~

Actually, my husband and I were just talking about alternate bonding locations and we think we have a couple friend's places that we will experiment with. We used the kitchen now because it is easy but mostly because it is the only place in the house that the buns do not ever go in to. Neither of them like the slippery floor .

Tomorrow night I think we will use the garage. I will keep you posted. Thank you!!

-Jackie

I'm glad you're going to give it another go. It'd make the past years bonding efforts mean something don't you think? I'll be cheering you on. Going ultra neutral might be the key with these two. Also, not being to quick to provide them with items they might be possessive about. It appears this might have been a sticking point with them in the past.

awww your white bunny looks just like my Shades.good luck with the bonding.hopefully everything will turn out fine.keep us updated

They are really cute, I hope you can get them back together soon!

 

Hey everybody. First let me say that your responses and support are truly the best. I feel like I have another reason to make this work now!

Bonding Session # 2:

Today I put the two of them back in their official 'bonding box' together and put them on the front seat of the car with the engine running. I did not feel like driving around so instead I just sat with them, a glass of wine and my book. They were nervous and huddled together the whole time.

 

Then I brought them inside on the kitchen floor again with a new blanket that neither of them have ever been near. Instead of letting them do their own thing this time I placed them together and just pet them both while they were snuggled together for about 20 minutes. They were giving me kisses but not each other. I feel like I should perhaps take it much slower this time around. I ended the session after the snuggling.

 

Question: Is there a benefit to just having the two have these positive experiences snuggling together even though I am not yet letting them act naturally together (hop around, play etc..)? I was thinking that I would do this for a week because I know they won't fight this way just to keep them feeling positive and then start letting them be more active as a next phase. Please let me know what you guys think about this.

 

Also, we are hoping to get to a more neutral place sometime this week as recomended.

 

Thanks guys!

-Jackie

so instead I just sat with them, a glass of wine and my book

Wish I was so wise when I did bonding. I'll know better for next time. ;o)

Is there a benefit to just having the two have these positive experiences snuggling together even though I am not yet letting them act naturally together (hop around, play etc

I like to think so. Though one can't say for sure if it aids their bond or not, you're not moving backwards to there's nothing to lose. It probably would aid the bond between you and them. So if it helps the bonder become more calm and prepared for the next step, I think that is important.

After being a bunny owner now for over 10 years I finally bought my first ever cage for the sake of bonding experimentation.

Question:
I had planned to buy 2 and have them hang side by side in the cages for a couple days on and off BUT I really can't afford to get two cages. My question is, is there anything I can do with the 1? For example, I was thinking that I can put them in a neutral and maybe a little scary space and put one of them in the cage with a litter box and one in the room outside the cage with her own litterbox and let them hang there for a couple of hours every day. I am concerned though that this might trigger jealousy and even more territory issue? What if I were to switch who is in the cage and who is not each day? The goal of the cage would be to get them used to being near each other and hopefully they will even start to relax next to each other etc..

What do you guys think? 1 cage = good or bad??

Thanks in advance!
-Jackie

Did you get an actual cage? I would have suggested you get an xpen and situate the panels in a way so each bunny was confined in half. (And then after, the xpen can be easily folded down and stored for future use, traveling, etc...

I did get an actual cage but I can certainly return it! Tell me more about what an xpen is. From what I understand it is just a series of metal gates, correct? I would be worried that they will be able to jump over the top. They have jumped over any gates I have tried

Thoughts?

I would return it. They're not very practical. You'll spend the same amount on an xpen and they are awesome for travel or blocking off "no-no" areas. We use the 36inch tall Midwest xpens. You could clip a sheet to the top if they can jump over 3 feet. It's just a temporary thing during bonding. Another option is to go with the NIC grids/C&C grids and build a pen, it just takes more time (and would still probably cost the same).

This one is short, probably the 24inch tall, but you get the idea.  They can be made into a 4x4 foot square and then you'd have to make a double divider down the center, or you could probably put it somewhere so two of the walls were made from your walls.

if you are looking to get them to interact more, a good way to trick them into grooming each other is to smear a little banana on the forehead of one. it worked wonders for me, and seems to get rid of a little tension between buns.

I just lost a long post I was working on but to sum up:

Thank you for the xpen info!! I am on it! Question - do I need to buy a separate piece for the middle divider or will that fold in a way to create the division?

Another question: I noticed Karla has been trying a system where she holds and pets one of them while the other explores and interacts naturally. My fear with this approach is that the territory issues might be exasperated if they consider ME territory and get jealous of each other. Thoughts? Am I being crazy?

Thanks guys. YOU ALL ROCK FOR GETTING ME EXCITED ABOUT THIS!

-Jackie

I was thinking of buying one of these. Anybody feel strongly about one or the other?

http://www.petsupplies.com/item/mid...#LongDescr

http://www.petsmart.com/product/ind...Id=2753756

I would get a model with a door. You might find it handy.
The 1st link had this at the bottom:
"See item number 110327 for Exercise Pen with a Door, this model DOES NOT include a walk through door."

The 2nd link has a PET door, but not a walk-thru door. So bunnies can get in and out, but YOU cannot get in and out to clean or feed. So I would not recommend that model.

 

www.petsupplies.com/item/midwest-pe...#LongDescr

Here is the link for the midwest model with walk-thru door.

For a divider, you might try a double layer of NIC grids spanning the space.  If you wanted them to have more space, and had one room to devote to bunnies, you could also try just putting the xpen open from end to end across the length of the room, making two halves.

Thanks guys! I am going to get the x-pen stuff after work today and will set up a new system this weekend. Pics to come! Thank you so much for the guidance.

I just thought of another good idea too, if you had access to NIC grids.  One of our forum leaders had this set-up to separate two pairs in the same small room.

I just wanted to wish you luck in your attempts!! I'm in the process of creating a bond with my two males so I'm in the same boat!

Thanks guys!

I bought a 36 tall xpen yesterday and am feeling really overwhelmed by its size and the whole process and changing up our whole scene - for the buns sake and the sake of my house that I hope to sell soon. I am struggling with figuring out a simple way to divide them with a double layer of wire without needing to buy a ton of stuff, nail a bunch of holes in my walls and make this too much of a permanent thing. I want to try, lets say a month (or whatever) to keep them in super close proximity while doing aggressive bonding sessions every day - that's the goal. But this whole x-pen thing feels overwhelming to me.

My other concern is that lets say I do fully commit to the xpen set up, I buy a ton of stuff, nail it all to my house (which I would like to put on the market soon!) and then, after all that work them living together ultimately creates more tension between them? What if they get obsessed with taunting each other through the wires? Can this system make it worse?

I feel like I need a therapist for me and my buns!!! Now that my head is in it, it is totally consuming and stressing me a bit until I have a plan.

Any thoughts? This weekend I hope to map this all out and commit to something.. whatever that may be.

-Jackie

If you're going to be moving soon, that will be a HUGE HELP in the bonding process. New territory is sometimes what it takes to get the bond going.

Along with the pen, can you buy one box of NIC grids? Stretch the xpen from end to end across the room, and on one side, put a single high row of NIC grids along the bottom. Space it out 3 inches and attach to the pen, and they will not be able to get to each other. You just need to prevent biting thru the bars. NIC grids can later be re-purposed to help with bun proofing the house.

Hey guys!  Hope you all had a great weekend.

OK! I bailed on the overwhelming x-pen BUT I bought a bunch of the wire cubes and set something up that is working! Yay!! Finally over 1 hump!

 

The two pens are set up about 3 inches away from each other for now and both buns are dealing with the new set up much better than I thought considering they have never been 'caged' at all before.  They are not taunting each other or trying to lunge at all. They are actually sort of mimicing each other! One goes to the litter box, the other does the same. One play wih her toys, the other does the same. Pretty cool - like when they were babies and best friends!

QUESTION: I am now supposed to keep switching them from cage to cage to make sure both spots are both buns' territories correct? Also, should I switch the litter boxes with them (so they each always have their own) or should they both use each litter box when they switch so they are both shared?

 

Bonding Session # 3:

Last night before putting the buns in their new homes we finally got back to our 'official' bonding sessions! I put them both in their bonding box and took a ride around the block. Then I came back to the house and sat in the car with the engine running and read for a while. They were great in the car as always - snuggling together.. nervous but not petrified. Dexter (black one) is starting to get that this is 'just a drill' and not worth being super scared of but Riley (white one) always has the 'the end is near!' look in her eyes. Either way, it is a good time for them to snuggle close!

Then I brought them back to the kitchen and put them on a towel together on the floor next to each other and did a nice long grooming of both of them while they were lying tightly next to one another. They both were really relaxed and appeared especially cool for being next to each other. After grooming for about a half hour they both got up and groomed themselves a little while ignoring each other. Then my husband and I decided to end on that good note at which point we brought them upstairs and put them in their new pens.

The end!

Tonight we do it all again! I will keep you posted.

-Jackie

Great set up for your bunnies! I'm looking to set up my boys in something similar so I may steal your condo plans!!!

Thanks! I'm happy to have finally put something together although after 10 years or so having buns with no cages or containment at all I am a bit of a sad mommy locking them up