But you raise a good point...why would Karl suddenly begin digging, and why does it upset Freddy so much? The fact that it may mean something is a good point. Interesting!

I should read that book again. As you may remember, my impression was that she did not consider neuter as an option, so I read the whole book with a distance and annoyance. But perhaps I should give her a chance and learn something

Anyhow, yes, tons and tons of these sessions, so they can begin to relax and not be so tense. I think Karl went for Freddy today, but they stopped quickly when I raised my voice. One of them tried to get a bite in (like two naughty boys who have been told to stop by their mum, but one of them just wants the final say). But then Karl groomed Freddy, and I finished the session.

why would Karl suddenly begin digging, and why does it upset Freddy so much?

Ah, you said that just a few minutes too early.

I guess I might be back to square one now. Darn it! I thought that both Karl and Molly were in the living room as usual, so I decided to let Freddy out of the cage. I closed the door and went into the kitchen, when I heard loud noises coming from the bunny room. I ran back in to find Karl and Freddy in a fight. Loads and loads of hair pulling!! No injuries though.

My boyfriend would surely tell me to leave them to sort it out themselves, and maybe I should. I just stopped them out of instinct, and I am not sure that I trust that they won't do more than fur pulling.

Note to self: always check the maze haven!

Alright, acute bonding session #13:

In short: fight! I put them in the container, and hell broke loose. They fought. I tried to put a hand in between, but it didn't help. I moved the container a bit, but it didn't help. So finally, I dropped the container on the floor - and guess what, they still fought! Grrr

Anyhow, I put them back in the container and removed the towel and this time, I gave them a real swing, so even I felt wuzzy afterwards. That helped. They were still biting each other, but not like fighting, more like "You jerk, you are in my way. Move!". But eventually, they stopped and Karl even groomed. Karl has a distinctive way of grooming bunnies he has not bonded with yet (did the same with Molly and Jack): he is very aggressive in his way of grooming by bite-grooming the recipient. So, they ended on a better note than they started.

 An interesting thing was that Karl was grinding his teeth like crazy. I think he was trying to calm himself down. He does that sometimes during the bonding sessions, but this time it was quite a lot.

While all this was going on, Molly was busy eating the fur from the fight. Umm

The fur I collected from the floor - this does not even include the fur that was all over my clothes and on the carpet.

And then there is all the loose fur on Karl now. I think we know now why he has a big bald spot on his back. Well, at least he is moulting, so it will grow out quickly.  

No, I actually think it was a good idea, so it was good you suggested it. Because they did finish off with being alright, and that is important. Otherwise, they would have hold a grudge until tonight when next session is on. And no, Karl is fine. He has been checked. I'm confident he is only doing it to calm himself or perhaps show a sign of friendliness and relaxation. It's a bunny thing, I may not understand what is going on, but I'm sure Freddy gets the message!

And the fur on the floor was from the fight that I was responsible for - not from the bonding session. So no worries!

Just to show you that afterwards, they were okay, here is a very small video clip:

Oh, wow, Karl is a little bunny then.-- Mops weighs 7 lbs. The little ones can be a handful, though... fast and feisty.

You are seeing too many negative encounters between them at this point. It is setting you up for a harder bond each time. I also think that Freddy is stressing big time from Karl's bullying. Freddy appears very uncomfortable in the last video.

Teeth grinding can be an expression of dominance in bonding sessions in my experience.

I would lay off the stress sessions for Freddy's sake and well-being. I would pair him with Molly to have a positive experience and use Molly as a mediator bunny between them. She would get to be with Karl and Freddy in turns. This can work very well as long as the boys accept Molly carrying each other's scent.

Also, during this time of bonding your trio, I would not involve any meetings with your new dog at all. Rabbits can only tolerate so much stress before showing ill effects.

These are just suggestions, of course.

edit to add: I highly recommend using only neutral space from here on in. Think back on how easy your bond was after your move... it was because of the new surroundings.

Posted By Petzy on 06/23/2010 08:45 AM
I'm glad you are using the neutral space then -- I assumed what you posted in LPT's thread applied to your current bond. You had posted there that you don't deal much with neutral territory when doing bondings.

You know your bunnies best! In the video it appeared as if Freddy was scared of Karl and I thought I remembered that Freddy freezes up frequently which is a sign of stress. Karl appears more comfortable and at ease. It is possible that Freddy aggresses out of fear. I could be wrong.

Okay, now I understand. Yes, with both Molly and Karl, and with Jack and Karl, I didn't use a neutral territory. Molly and Jack was on partly neutral territory, because they  met and hang out at our old place (without any problems) for 1½ day, but when they met again at our new place, they had their tiffs for three days where I let them work it out. 

I think both Freddy and Karl are really stressed. Freddy freezes, but Karl grooms. I Karl's grooming as an automatic way of responding to stress in this situation, but at least it is the right thing for them both when he does it.

I decided to do as you say and give them some time out. Mostly because I went into the bunny room and Karl hurried off and hid from me. So, instead I did some bonding sessions with Molly and Freddy as suggested. I just put them in the cage. It's kind of difficult, because I don't think Freddy is a groomer, and Molly most definitely isn't, so I don't think I will ever see them groom. But Molly is sleeping and Freddy is grooming himself next to her. They flopped against each other as well. I think that is the best we will see of them since no grooming is likely to happen.

Posted By Sarita on 06/23/2010 09:34 AM
I don't think you ever want to just let them work it out by fighting - that's not working it out, it's just fighting.

I think it's best to always try to end each session on a positive note as well. Do you have a balcony or something that could be a neutral space as well rather than just a container?

No, but I have thought about using the garden. Although they have all been outside, but not that much that I think anyone considers it their territory. However, I'm not sure that territory has anything to do with their tension. It is more the fact that when one of them has the space to move around, the other gets nervous and decides to attack.

I tried the shower, which is a neutral area. I could go back to that place again although I have to admit that I am a bit nervous about that because they will have some room to move...any ideas then if I decide to do that?

I am always interested in following bonding threads with multiples as it can be tricky, and I myself learn alot from these threads. One thing I wanted to mention regarding the video where Freddy attacks Karl after he digs ---I had learned at the Enhanced Rabbit Seminar recently that "digging" can also be seen as an aggressive move. A dominant and/or pre fight move.

Karl may have not meant it in an aggressive way as bunnies will also dig when they are stressed (trying to escape), but it could have been perceived by Freddy as aggressive especially since they might be a bit on edge at this stage.

The grinding of the teeth can also indicate stress. Bailey used to grind her teeth at the vets office and I remember asking Dr. Harvey why she thought she did that, was she in pain some how, even though she was just sitting in the carrier, and Dr. Harvey mentioned that some bunnies do that when they have anxiety and/or are stressed.

I know I'm not offering bonding tips here, but just thought that maybe some of the insight into possible body language cues may help in some way.

Good luck with everything....my advice .....lots of wine for you...or me (watching all of this makes me nervous. LOL.

When it comes to bonding --- the "by the book" is more of just a starting point anyway in my opinion...after that really, it's more about just following a few of the "pages" and then creating your own book! LOL. Some bunnies actually freak out by stress bonding, while other times that's all that works at first. Even Jack and Vivian's bonding was not really by the book because Vivian could go visit "his" territory, and with another pair, that could be a recipe for disaster. So, I think it's always good for someone who is bonding to check out the "by the book" rules and try them out, but after that, it's all about the dynamics of the pair or group and finding out what works.

Good Luck and keep us updated when you feel it's best. Don't get discouraged even if things take a negative turn at times. (It's easier to say, of course, as I, myself, find bonding terribly stressful.

BONDING VIBES!

I've been hiding out trying to forget that I have bonding sessions to do. Well, I took a break for about a week or more after having consulted with Petzy.

So we were back with the sessions yesterday:

#20: I put them outside on the roof (don't even ask!!) with the cage top over hoping that a complete change of environment might do the trick. it didn't. Don't remember who started biting, but they both ended up going for my hand. Ouch.

#21: I decided to go back to the container. It went really well for a while, but then Freddy bit Karl, and they both ended up trying to bite each other. I then had them pushed together on my chest while standing up, so they could not jump down. Both were panting heavily, but at least not fighting. Karl was grinding his teeth a lot!

#22: I tried to continue with sessions on my chest, but Freddy decided to bite me, so I gave up. I sat down and had them on my lap. This worked really well. Until Freddy bit Karl, and I ended the session.

#23: I tried with the lap again and it seemed to work. I got bored and started brushing them both as they are moulting heavily, which might have been stupid as that meant that at one point, Karl bit Freddy who fell down on the floor. I ended the session.

I just went into the bunny room to do another session, but Karl saw me and ran into his box and thumped. I sat down to give him a treat, but he tried to attack me. Clearly not enjoying his bonding sessions.

Between session #22 and #23, Karl escaped the bunny room and went into the living room where Freddy has been today. He went over to Freddy and seemed friendly, but Freddy did not seem friendly AT ALL and was in that position where they are ready to attach. Thankfully, I managed to stop him.

It's getting tiresome. Ha, I'm even thinking of bringing in the dog to stress them together. No, honestly, it is getting to me that both of them seem so stressed about the sessions. I really don't like seeing them panting and grinding their teeth like that. I've been thinking of putting water in the container, although I'm not sure if that is a stress thing. I might just put them in a big pen in the garden and have a bit bucket of water ready in case somebody attacks. But it will require that I am willing to see how much they actually fight - if it is just marking or actual attack, if you understand what I mean.

I was reading MarkBun's thread - I might just try this out:

Basically, whenever the aggressor bites the other one, you put the attacked on top of the aggressor. In my case, I think Karl is the one I should put on top, although I see in point in just letting Freddy have his way and be the dominant one.

((hugs)) Don't despair. You're coming off a bad session so it's natural to feel down about it all. It might be time to have a break again. Especially given this last fight and also your fraught nerves. It will do everyone good to have a break.

It may be you have to find the technique or stressor that works best on them. You have to get pretty creative.  It could be even the container is the best thing and you have to do x amount of session in that. It might send you cross eyed but it all builds their trust in one another. Then there will be a subtle shift.