My Significant Other and I brought Arduina to the bunny sanctuary yesterday!  To my surprise, she wasn't enthusiastic about any of the single neutered male bunnies we tried.  There was one however who just adored her.  He was very calm and sweet, but shy and was very submissive to Arduina's top bunny demands.  Even though Arduina wasn't crazy about him and mostly ignored him, we decided to bring him home (the people there thought they would bond).   We have renamed him Leo (I post pictures in the welcome forum).

First bonding session at home:

Since they were already very tired from the long day and the 2 h car ride home, we put them in the downstairs bathroom together with Arduina's litter box and some water (they had a couple of hours to settle in at home prior).  Arduina became very teritorial, even though she doesnt go in that part of the house she knows where she is.  She began pooping around him (and on him!)  and biting his ears.  He would just lay still unless she hurt him he would fight her off.  Arduina then began to ignore him and would flop because she was tired, Leo would watch her while he was eating hay or grooming.  Once Leo saw Arduina was flopped, he would slowly approach her, trying to give her a kiss!  Of course Arduina didn't like this guy kissing her so she would jump over him or box at him.  Leo even used her litterbox.. to Arduina's dismay.  Since they were both pretty tired, we could get them both flopped side-by-side while petting and giving nose rubs.  Arduina would sniff him a little, but I think she would also nip at his ears.  Leo is really trying to be her friend.   Hopefully Arduina will realize that Leo will let her be the top bunny princess and they'll become great friends.  

It seems to have gone better than some of the stories I've read, but I was really hoping for Arduina to fall in love at first sight.  I guess I didn't realize how much of a picky little princess she is.  She even gets mad when I pet Leo.  Arduina has never been around bunnies (since she was a baby), so that might have something to do with her major attitude.  

Leo is currently housed in a separate part of the house (temporarily in the basement), since I want Arduina to maintain her excellent litter box habits.  The problem is that she is mostly free-roaming when we are home, so everywhere but the basement is her territory.   Leo also needs time to adjust to his new home and us, and come out of his shell.  

 

**EDIT: page 4 has summary/tips of bonding experience.

That sounds like a great start to me! If you have one very easy going bun, it makes everything so much easier. She'll learn that he's only there to give her kisses and wait on her hand and foot :-P

As of today, there has been no fighting. Yesterday there was one or two in the first 10min of a 2h+ session. Leo keeps trying to mount Arduina, but she hasn't given in yet. He chases her around singing the love song (honking) until they both get tired and flop on separate sides of the room. She'll get up from a flop as soon as he touches her, but is such a flirt and will flop/roll a foot away from him. They are both still peeing and pooing everywhere, but are good with their litterbox habits in their own habitats. We are still in the neutral bathroom space. I keep wiping up the pee with vinegar and throwing the poo in the litterboxes.

 So there is still no fighting between the two buns, however Arduina is still being territorial. While she didn't pee last night, she is still leaving poo drops everywhere. She usually leaves a drop (or puddle) when Leo tries to mount her. I still have Arduina and Leo in the 'neutral territory' downstairs bathroom. The past two nights I have done a drier session, with both buns in a large litter box on the drier. This seems to help get them close together. Strangely enough, it is Arduina who humps Leo in the litterbox, while in the bathroom, Leo chases Arduina around trying to mount. They have been sniffing noses (kissing!), but no snuggling or grooming each other yet. I have been doing 2h session all week. Will Arduina ever stop the territorial marking?? I am nervous about moving them upstairs since she has free run of the upstairs house when we are home (and free run of her 'bedroom' 24 h). Here is a picture of them:

 

He sounds lovely!
I think it's going well so far, and rather quickly.
However, I am concerned about the ear biting. If you can stop her before she actually gets to his ears, it would be much better for him. Bonding experts, I'm thinking a spray water bottle is the thing to use to get her to back off. Bunnies can do some really serious damage to each other's ears, and he could need a vet if she bites through, or takes out a piece. Better to "nip" that in the bud if you can. Also, you can keep a strainer, the mesh kind for vegetables with a handle, at the ready so you could stick it between them if she starts to go for him with her teeth.

When Leo is lowering his head in front of her, it isn't to be subordinate. It's being dominant, he's demanding grooms from her

Ooh, thanks Monkeybun. Leo lowers his head to be pet by us too. He will crouch down low when we start petting him.

RabbitPam, I do break up them up when she starts doing that. Sometimes it is hard to tell if she is nipping or licking his ears.

We had to end the session early tonight because Arduina's feet started to bleed (sore hocks). I keep putting on that cream 2x a day (silver sulfadiazine), but they don't seem to be getting better. I think she may just need rest, except that she loves to run around and our vet said that she needs lots of exercise to loose some weight. I've got a fleece blanky I've spread out in the middle of her room and she's got tons of 'squishy' stuff like a kitty bed and other fleece blankies around.

Wow. what a handsome couple! he sounds truly enamored with her. I hope all goes well for you. I'm getting my buns new mate in a couple of weeks.

Everything looks good. The first picture shows one bun relaxing while the other non-chalantly grooms. They're showing each other that they're not afraid of each other. The nipping could be simply a misunderstanding as how to groom gently. Maryann first started grooming other buns with a LOT of force.

Also, when she's nibbling on his ears and around his eyes and he's taking it, she's actually grooming him. Sometimes they're a little rough about it when they don't know what they're doing :-P If he's just laying there and letting her do it, I would leave them. You don't want to teach her that grooming isn't ok. I would only break them up if it seems like she's annoying him too much.

And like MB said, he's being dominant and demanding grooms.

Oooh ok. Thanks Markbun and Elrohwen. When Arduina nips Leo's ear too hard he will jump/shake a little, but doesn't really get up. She does that to us too (and gets yelled at for it). Maybe Leo can teach her the proper way to groom and then she'll stop nipping us too!

When will she stop pooing/peeing everywhere? I would really like to move this out of the bathroom... I'm getting tired of spending my evenings sitting on the bathroom floor or on the toilet.

Ok, well maybe that wasn't a good idea.  After vacuuming and moping with vinegar, I tried doing a bonding session in the upstairs bathroom.  It did not go well at all.. They fought and we had to break it up. Seems like a step backwards.  We tried getting them to lay down together, it worked while we were petting them, but then the started fighting again.  

Arduina got Leo pretty bad, tore out a huge chunk of fur on the side of his neck, top layer of skin came a long with it.  Leo has a ~1.5 inch bald spot that is quite red but wasn't bleeding.  I wasn't sure if neosporin was ok for bunnies, so I put some of Arduina's sore hocks cream on it (silver sulfadiazine) I figured thats ok for her feet when they were red and bleeding and I know its safe if they lick it.  Should I continue with the silver sulfadiazine or use neosporin (I read on here neosporin is ok? but which is better?)?

Leo seemed all fine and not bothered by it (typical bunny response).  We put him back in his room and he still let us pet him and he ate some treats out of my hand.  I think we are going to take today off and we'll head back down stairs next time.  Although in a week or so we are having someone move in and rent out the basement, so I'll have to move him and the bonding sessions upstairs.  It sucks that Arduina thinks the whole house is hers and she's being so mean to Leo .

 Here is a picture of Leo and the damage done by Arduina.  

 

I just ordered another xpen.. for Arduina.  I'm going to have to move Leo upstairs and have them share the same room since we are renting out the basement.  I know Arduina isn't going to like going back to a 'cage', she's had free range for 6 months now.  I'll probably have to switch her back to a water bottle, because last time she was confined in the pen she would flip everything over and bang around to be let out.  Leo is currently using her xpen and she doesn't seem to miss it one bit (I had replaced the open door xpen with a coffee table about the same size, so there is still the whole set up just not the 'walls'.)

I have been switching their litterboxes, and once i have another pen I can switch them as well.  Since they will be in the same room (Arduina's territory), I'll make sure to vacuum and mop with vinegar really well and also rearrange the room (my desk and the rest of Arduina's 'furniture').

I'll continue with the dryer sessions and I can use the downstairs bathroom for another week.. Any other suggestions about having no neutral territory?  

Oh, poor Leo. That's what you got from falling in love with a feisty lady.

Car? The tub? The garden? Really depends on how you live. Maybe you can go to a friend's house? I've seen in other threads, that quite a few have used a basket that they carry around the house. That might be a good idea.

Iwayne, this wound needs to heal first before you continue any bonding.

I haven't put them together since the big event two nights ago. I plan on giving Leo a rest and time to heal (they both probably need a rest). I'm just trying to strategize the next steps.. I will continue to switch litterboxes and next week when I get the second pen, move them to the same room. I'll put Arduina in there for a day or two to get her situated back into a confined space before I move Leo upstairs. I can then also switch them from pen to pen.

Our tub is also part of Arduina's 'Queendom', she likes to go in there and dig and jumps in and out quite well. I haven't let her out in the rest of the house since we brought Leo home; she's been confined to her room (soon to be their room). The drier sessions will help and I'll have to do that until they are solid and then move to a larger area, which will have to be semi-neutral (hopefully forgotten territory?).

Can anyone find the link of the '7 months of bonding'? Not that I think it will take 7 months, but I think that bonding story there was also no neutral area.

Even though the bonding is frustratingly slow, I am using this time to bond Leo with us humans. He is becoming friendlier toward us day by day!

They are both really beautiful.

When Lems got neutered and kept tugging at the wound, the vet said neosporin 2x a day, and that it was ok if he licked it off, if that helps at all.

Posted By lwayne on 05/05/2010 05:32 PM

Can anyone find the link of the '7 months of bonding'? Not that I think it will take 7 months, but I think that bonding story there was also no neutral area.

I think you might be referring to member Battie's bonding of Quincy and Beulah. Her bonding is broken up in several threads, the first two links cover the bunny-dating experience. I thought I'd add that too, as it talks a little about Quincy and member Battie's bonding space. 

 

www.binkybunny.com/FORUM/tabid/54/a...fault.aspx

www.binkybunny.com/FORUM/tabid/54/a...fault.aspx

 

 

www.binkybunny.com/FORUM/tabid/54/a...fault.aspx

 

www.binkybunny.com/FORUM/tabid/54/a...fault.aspx

 

www.binkybunny.com/FORUM/tabid/54/a...fault.aspx

Good morning! Petzy just alerted me to this thread. I'm at work now so can't give it my full attention, but I will be happy to try to help when I get home.

Good luck!

I think since one of your bunnies is friendly it should not take you as long as it did for me to bond. I had one bunny angry over losing his territory and another who did not necessarily need company. I think things also went so slowly because I was not aggressive enough about working on the bond. I don't remember the timelines (and maybe not all the events), but this is how it progressed:

1. First, I couldn't even let Beulah be visible while Quincy had play time. I shielded her cage with cardboard so he wouldn't growl and attack through the bars.
2. Eventually, I was able to let them have separate playtimes in the same room. Beulah would mark but Quincy didn't. I think this stage caused some bad feelings at first, especially for Quincy, who did not like seeing another bunny approach his cage and mark around it. But when there is only one room, you don't have much choice for exercise.
3. Letting them roam together was out of the question, but I finally worked up the guts to put them in the tub together. They stayed far away from each other, and banana on the head did not attract them. At least it was quiet, though sometimes Quincy would chase.
4. I needed to get them closer, so I'd put them in a Tupperware box, with the lid adjusted so they could breathe but not get out. If Quincy started trouble I'd stop it immediately with a gentle shake or a squirt. Eventually, though, I realized this might be something they have to do to work things out, so if Quincy got a little nippy I'd watch *very* closely and break it up only if he went overboard.
5. Previously, if I tried to let them roam free together, a frightening fight would break out. But after all this I was able to let them have playtime at the same time. They didn't really want much to do with each other and Quincy might chase, but it was definitely a good step. But by no means could I confine them together.
6. Eventually I worked up the guts to do car rides. (People kept recommending this, but I was scared to try it.) This helped immensely because they'd mellow out in the car, and Quincy would be so freaked out that when we got home he'd be a much calmer bunny for Beulah. During this time I'd also occasionally switch cages, hoping to confuse them on territory.
7. As things smoothed out we all decided it was time to take the plunge and build a new, neutral cage. I did this, making sure I could separate them if it got rough. I was able to keep them together all evening but had to separate them at bed time. But after that they did so well I actually left them together all day, not wanting to disturb anything. I never had to separate them after that. It was really amazing how fast things worked out once they started to get along.

They are still doing great, sharing one cage in one room. No more marking! They still push each other around, especially at feeding time, and Quincy never gave up mounting Beulah. I don't worry though, because they are so snuggly the rest of the time. Even outside the cage they rest from play flopped next to each other. Amazingly, Quincy, the territorial bunny, more often and not is the one to submit. I often catch him grooming Beulah!

I'm not sure if this was the info you were looking for, but hopefully there are some ideas there for helping cope with the small space, and hope that things will work out. Again, that one of the bunnies is super friendly gives me hope for a much quicker bond than I had.

Thanks for your help Battie! I read through all of your bonding posts. Our situation seems similar in that we had the same reasons for getting a second bunny and that the original bunny had all of the territory. It is a little different in that our house isn't that small, it is just prior to getting Leo, we gave Arduina full run of the house while we were home and her own area is a full room (will eventually be the bunnies' room). Even the bath tub is part of Arduina's Queendom. Leo seems more like that first bunny you tried at the shelter. I am so glad your two bunnies are snuggle buns now!!! Congrats! I hope all of your hard work is paying off.

What I am going to have to do is confine Arduina back to a pen and make the bunny room their shared play area with both pens in there. I I can try a tupperwear box like you suggested and the drier/washer sessions, but once they are comfortable there I'll have to move up to the bathroom. Hopefully by then Arduina will have forgotten that place.

Right now I am giving Leo time to heal and waiting for a new pen to arrive. I also have been switching litter boxes, and I just started with a dummy stuffed animal last night too.

Thanks, Battie, I had been wanting a summary of your bonding because it was so lengthy. Thanks a lot!

 I got antsy about bonding the buns, and Leo is doing much better... 

So after the short hiatus, I tried putting them both in a box on the drier.  It didn't go so well, like back to the beginning.  Leo is gaining his confidence and thus both were being aggressive and trying to bite the other one.  I could get them to lay down head to tail by petting both of them, but if I stopped for a minute, one would try to bite the other one, which I would have to intervene.  I know they both just want to duke it out for the top position.

It sucks that last week I had them running around the bathroom together and flopping in front of each other and now they just want to attack each other.  

I've still been switching litterboxes and the stuffed animal.  

Posted By lwayne on 05/08/2010 09:12 PM

 

It sucks that last week I had them running around the bathroom together and flopping in front of each other and now they just want to attack each other.  

 

I don't know why, but rabbits are often friendlier in the very beginning and then start using more aggression as the sessions unfold. This is not necessarily a setback but just part of the process. I suppose when they first meet, they are overwhelmed and feeling out the other bun carefully, later on they gain confidence like you write about Leo and that's when the dynamics can get heated.

Maybe I should say back to pre-bonding...

Well I moved Leo into Arduina's room (now the bunny room), they each have their own pen and will get separate play times in the shared room (Ideally). 

I tried letting Leo out for some exercise but he just ran over to Arduina's pen and they tried to fight through the bars, since then I have put cardboard walls up but he still tries to 'see whos behind there'.  Close supervision is needed. 

Since Leo has been sharing 'her room' and been in the 'couped up' pen, she has not been happy.  Leo hasn't been either, I've never seen him so frantic, he is usually very chill.  Arduina has been ignoring litterbox habits so I haven't switch their boxes yet.  I am also afriad to let her out in the room now that Leo has chinned everything. 

Her pen is 4x4ft while Leo's is 2x4ft, since Leo's is 2ft tall I had to make a top out of two of the panals.  Arduina's pen is 30 inches high, do you think she could jump out of it?  Both are the precision exercise pens: http://www.petco.com/product/5874/P...-Pens.aspx

I'm going to wait until they settle down (at least until next week) before I put them together for another bonding session.  The last one was before they were in the same room and that was on the dryer. I had to put a shoe in the dryer because they got use to the dryer going. They are ok when both are being pet, but as soon as I stop, they go at each other.  I don't even think we are ready for car rides.

Any suggestions are welcome. (How bad does it get before it starts to get better? and how soon?!!)

I would not let them share the room. They can smell each other and it is escalating the aggressive actions you are seeing as both want to claim that space. Yes, a bunny can jump 30" high. Can you move one of them out of that room?
The dryer is not the same as a car ride, car rides are usually more effective than dryer rides. Do you have someone who will drive a car while you have a session with the rabbits in it?

Oh no.. now I'm really freaking out. I thought about getting the 48in pen but we thought it was too ridiculous and I seem to remember the pens at the bunny sanctuary being 30in.

I'm at work now and have a busy day, I'm not sure if I can make it home. I just emailed my Significant Other to see if he could run home to check on them.

I'm not sure where we can put Leo that he would have some exercise space too. I think the living room is too open for his play time and our bedroom isn't bunny proofed. The basement is being painted by our new roommate so that is out (thats why we moved Leo upstairs).

Edit:  S.O. just emailed back said he can run home in an hour and then at lunch to move Leo in to the living room!  Thanks Petzy for your help and quick replies!  I'll have S.O. drive us around.. or maybe I'll drive and have him pet the bunnies (I get car sick).  

about the height, use a sheet clipped on the top of the pen to be safe.

Update:

We've been doing car rides in a big tupperware bin. It seems to help take the focus off of fighting, they usually just lay down next to each other (head to tail) the whole time. Once it is over and the motion sickness wears off, it is usually Arduina who starts the nipping. She'll nip Leo, and then to 'get her back' he'll nip her. I'm afraid if I don't intervene with them in such close quarters it will turn into them circling each other. They are good as long as I continue to pet them. I think they may need to work out whos the alpha, but I'm afraid it will turn into a big fight since they are both are aggressively nipping. Would it help to be in a larger space (like the bathtub)?

How long is this supposed to go on for? How do I know when to move up to the next step (bathtub)? When will they start getting along? Both seem to want grooms from the other one, but don't want to give them.

At this stage you want to just pet them calm. If you take your hands off and they go back to reciprocal nipping -- you go back to stroking them calm. Don't move on until they sit peaceably in the bin together. A larger space will only give them a better starting point for harder altercations.