Helloo again Petzy,
Yesturdays basket bonding didn't go so well they circled, (if you can imagine even in such a small area) and nipped each other. but there was a good note, she groomed him. No i still can't tell if someone backs down when they were in the 80cm x 80cm area neither would back down. I will try the basket again today 2 more sessions. then i will try the car. Like i said before they will not fight in the car i am sure of it. If the weather stays nice i might try out side in their Run it is movable so i can move it to an area they don'r know. I don't understand them. She was the dominant rabbir before her operation. and i think she doesn't want to give it up . before; he was so scared of her, he would run away if she got aggressive ( harmones) now he won't back down. she is alot calmer now after the operation. and in the basket mostly she excepts the nipping. One time it goes well the next time not so good. It has been over a month and very little progress is being made. Oh well!
I guess there is a good side to it at least they groom occationally one or the other.
I will let you know how it goes later. mabe the car will work.
Thank you -

I would try that outdoor run. Whenever I had a hard bond, I would move the rabbits around to any new set up/spot I could think of until I found one that worked.

Is it possible to make a short video of them during a session if you have someone to help you?

We had 2 sucessful basket datess , sucesseful i am saying because after his brief bossiness( nipping?) they both sat the hole time face to face and grooming each other.. she groomed him mostly. but he did a little back. This mornigs session he groomed her more then she did him.. so maybe they are coming to an aggreement, I am still afriad to put them together in a bigger place.because they might start to fight, then that might set us back again!. when i put them in a different place i will try to get q video .of how they react. I will have to wait for some help.
Hopeful it is nice tommorrow and i can put them outside. They still seem to get along the best though in the basket..
Till next time.

Try the bigger place, the outdoor run, with you in it to limit their space -- there should be no room for them to charge at each other. You could put one rabbit on your lap and sit with her like that in the outdoor run allowing the other to move around. Then switch. This would ease the transition into the new space.

Hello again!
we are about to give up! and build the rabbit condo bigger to accomidate two separate sections.
I Tried the outside run today didn't go well at all, at first they were preoccipied with the grass then they snooped alittle i had to always keep my hand between them and tell them to be good tails were not really up but I am cautous when one comes over to the other.i try to keep my hand there.then before i got a chance to put one on my lap they went at it. It happened too fast.They were in a grip i littlety had to phyically separte them . i picked up cotton. She wanted to go back after him but i calmed her down that is when i saw the torn ear. (Small rip) i put medicine and bandage on it.
Then i put them both back into the basket. no fighting . or aggression at all .even after they calmed down.they start grooming each other.. i don't understand after he tore her ear. that they get on fine in the basket.But anywhere else they fight.
Yesturday evenings session in the basket didn't go to well they were circling he was nipping. but yesturday mornings session went really good they took turns grooming each other.No Nipping .

WE were wondering if we should separate their cages putting them in separate rooms? if maybe being side by side is causing aggressions? they lay in their separate cages togther however they can't touch. He is in the condo she is in a smaller cage but they switch cages every day. maybe i should makre the outside cage/run smaller?.But then there will be not much room when i am in it with them.
Truthfully i am beginning to think it is not going to work. and now we know letting them fight it out is not an option. I am half tempeted to leave them in the basket over night, but there is no room for food , litter box, or anything. But that seems to be the only place they get along. Of course i haven't tried the car yet .Maybe i should put them in the car overnight and sleep in there with them? but at the moment it still cold at night for that.
I am almost ready for the BASKET myself.They are wearing me down. intsead of the other way around.

thanks again.

I absolutely agree about separating them to be caged in different rooms. When you are dealing with aggression, it is best to let the rabbits only meet/see/smell each other for the sessions. The side-by-side cages can make aggression escalate as they are constantly feeling to have to defend their personal space.

Let's do something else as far as the sessions go; find a container slightly bigger than that basket, maybe a rubbermaid container or similar. You will have to keep them from jumping out though. Add a stressor to those sessions, like putting this container in your idling car. If we can get Cotton and Tiger upgraded to a larger space in baby steps it will work too. Anything and everything/everywhere you let them spend a session has got to be neutral. I know how discouraging it looks when you see them locked in a grip on each other with their teeth but bunnies like that have bonded too.

Hello, thanks for the tip. i was wondering about the neutral place you said they need to be neutral place thats what i thought outside would be . since they are house rabbits they are never outside except in the summer for a couple of hours in their small hutch with small run. I only have the basement left and it is owned by Ferrets. and the car. and if these don't work then we will probably give up. i do realize it will take more then just a few sittings.
so i will give these places a chance. How long should I leave them in the container, before i move to the next size. what if they continue to fight,nip or whatever? should i put them back in the smaller basket? and start over?

sorry for all the questions but I am totally at a loss.

The outdoor run could have worked, but you never know what works for which rabbits. Don't worry about it, for now, while you are using 'containers' you can hold the session anywhere since the container is the neutral place. Do not allow them to nip or fight. You have to be faster than them: if they look at each other like they're going to go for the fight again -- stop them using your hands wearing gloves. Push down the instigator's head briskly but of course not too hard either. It is quite possible that your first few sessions in the new larger container will be very hand-on, literally. You will get them to a point where they will mellow out in that container and then you can upgrade to another larger space or containment. Keep the session short, 25 min. is enough in the beginning.

I put them in a 1 bunny size bigger box 3 bunnies could fit side by side. They went at it I had to put one out.even with my hands in the box to stop them but in the end they sat quietly next to each other. and when one looked evil i put their head down. said no! Will see how tonights sessions goes. But I don't know if i am up to it. Saturday will be no sessions because of other appointements I hope that doesn't haved a negative effect on these sessions. Will it be like starting over? I know these questions are hard to answer 1. you are not a rabbit 2. you do not know these rabbits.
I have been doing 2 or 3 ssessions a day. For about 6 weeks now. they are now on oppisite sides of the room, since we didn't have another room to separate them in.
They are usually let out daily from the cages for individual playtime.( however i wonder if that should also be stopped). Now they must play with the dog. instead of each other.

I know it was a good decision to have her spayed , she" had" already at 1 year old a uterine infection. The Vet said Sometimes i wonder if it would have been better just to leave them togther without spaying for the "few years" she would have had. We have had in the last 15 years 4 bunnies, (before these). never did the bonding, all were in separate cages all female. One lived to be 13years old we called her our" Enegizer rabbit" she kept on going, and going ...... the last one was 10 years. Had tumors in her lungs. the others probably died of uterine or health problems because they passed at 6 years old.
We had a vet that is a rabbit specialist, but would not spay cotton, because" there is no proof of Rabbits getting Uterine problems" Da!! we got another vet. However still not rabbit savvy, but had done several spay operations.
Sorry I got off of the Bonding theme.
Let you know how later how things are going.

Discouraged Bunny Mamma.

Yes, a wise rabbit would be great for advice duing bonding, LOL!

I would add a stuffed animal the size of a bunny or bigger in with the rabbits inside the larger box/cotainer. Skipping a few sessions won't hurt your progress, it may even help to calm down everyone; your rabbits may need some time off too. No need to cancel their out-of-cage times either.

Can you add a motion stress to your next session, such as putting the box with the rabbits, plus stuffed animal, on top of your washing machine while it is spinning?

this tiger plushy helped me with one bond. you can put a stuffed animal like that in the rabbit's cages, taking turns. One night leave it wiith Cotton and one night with Tiger. It will acquire both rabbits' scents.

Posted By CottonTiger on 03/25/2010 12:52 AM
Now they must play with the dog. instead of each other.

Is this dog trustworthy with your rabbits? You may be able to add him into a session if he is.

HI Ha!
that is the question . trustworhty? I think. she (the dog) has the hunt instinct but is not much bigger then the rabbits, she wouldn't hurt them intentionally. as a matter of fact when cottons ear got tore yesterday the dog tried to lick it to make it better. And I had thought about using the dog but didn't know how and now the way they are. the dog might get bit. I tried a smaller pen outside again today just big enough for 3 rabbits. same thing again as this morning in the box only this time i had to litterly hold them down so they wouldln't attack the other. they didn't try the whole time but it was a long 20 min session. And I ended it on a good note. I put them in the small basket to bring them in the house and they were fine. I don't get it. When they have to sit next to each other they nip but no major scuffles. and groom each other, although this afternoon they were not in the basket long enough to see if they would groom each other.
Should I put the dog in the pen/box with them?



" No! nothing happened you can go back to your hay!"

I would just be concerned that the dog would get stimulated by the bunnies if they were to start fighting and jump in herself and hurt someone. What kind of dog is it?

If your dog may hurt them, it's too risky. It sounded like your dog was rabbit--proof when you posted that the rabbits have playtime with your dog.
You could do a bathtub session, though, with the faucet running into the open drain as a noise stressor. You will have to keep trying different scenarios til you find one bigger than the basket that works. Use a plushy in the tub too. And treats like in the picture I posted.

I am reminded of Valmore and Clifford I bonded. They were 2 rabbits that initially got along but had a  falling out resulting in utter hatred for one another. They both wanted to be boss. They would lock their teeth onto one another and neither wanted to back down. It was extremely frustrating and I tried many setups with them unsuccessfully. They, too, would always try to get fighting in a large space. They fought in the bathtub.  I ended up holding many sessions in the bottom half of a hay-filled cat carrier. I would put that on my lap and watch TV at night stroking them and bouncing my leg. Eventually they stopped nipping and would just loaf there. Then I upgraded them to a big container, an old sandbox I had. I didn't want to use the bathtub because they had fought in there many times and I wanted a setup that was mobile enough for me to move to different rooms. It is important that you make the sessions comfortable enough for yourself as they should get lengthier.

Here is how I used one of my dogs but he is constantly around rabbits so he is very much proofed.

 

 

This was them in the sandbox. They quickly learnt that I was not going to allow them to jump out. Those sessions could last for hours and eventually wore them out to start bonding.

Thank you for the video however i can.t view it . it says that it was privit and i have to ask you for exceptance????? i have never had that before . anyway to answer your question about the dog , she would run if the started fighting. but you are right it is too risky , for both the rabbits and the dog. She is a bischon frise /chihauhua mix???? she weighs 5 Kilos (10 pounds?) so she is a bit bigger then the rabbits,when they are out they have a cardboard castle to play in , and the dog spends the time in there with them. and she is young 1 1/2 yrs old , and is learning she must not chase the rabbits . but sometimes the bunnies will come and stand infront of her and do a binky, sometimes i think just to get her to chase them.

We tried the 3 bunny sized box again tonight, and there was nothing , of course i petted them the whole time. she even groomed him a little. Then tried to push her heaad under his. i thought it looked like he might try to nip. and put my hand in the way.but nothing happened. They do not like my gloved hand there though they try to push it away.
Are the rabbits in the pictures Valmore and Cliford? they look like very frisky happy rabbits. beautiful. bunnies.
Till next time.

try the video again.

be patient. your rabbits will come around!

HELLO again.
i did another bonding session one yesterday morning., then since i was gone . one this evening. yesterdays bonding session was ok. not much aggression.I think he tried to nip her. she groomed him, but he won't groom her. Today the session was better they sat cheek to cheek, they would try to push their heads under each other (to be groomed i guess) Cotton is a the one doing the gromming.then she puts her head down. he will lay with his head over hers but refuses to groom her. So maybe we are making some progress, i guess i can try another size bigger box? and increase the time they are together or is it pushing it alittle? they do seem to be chilling though. athought i will see how tomorrows session goes.

have a nice eveineng till next time

Yipee yeh! this mornings session, went real well after a small circling action which i broke up. he growled at her i banged on the lid, saying don't bite, then when she didn't groom him , after a bit he started grooming her. Yeh! it is apparent that they still have some differences. but he seemed to groom her more this morning then she did him.. after watching closely, i think he is pushing her face an not nipping.but sometimes it is hard to tell. since she isn't attacking back when he does it, it must be a good sign. it is soo sweet to see them grooming each other.

But i think we still have a long process in front of us.
till next time.

hi again, I am catching up now.
What type of box are you using right now, how big and where? Are you just sitting with them in the box without stressors? If so, you may want to try a larger enclosure, but one where you have access to intervene readily. Refresh my memory, please, how did these two behave in the bathtub, did you ever try that? It may be a good space now, as you can resort to using water noise as a stressor if they act up. You would just run water beside the bunnies into your open drain, or hold the shower head close to the drain and make a scary noise for them that way. The rabbits are not suposed to get wet, unless there is a bad fight.

yeh, we started out in the bathtub and they fought everytime so I started with the 30cm x30cm box that you said, only it was a basket. now they are in a 60cm x44cm basket just big enough for 3 bunnies. so there is still room. I have no stressor only they sit in the front room. with me either on my lap or on the chair beside me. we tried the water thing in the bathtub did not change a thing. Iam getting ready to move them to a biigger box tonight to see what happens. one just big enough for 4 bunnies. siide by side. will probably need the gloves again, haven't needed them the last few sessionss only had to shake the box or bang on the lid to get them to stop the aggressions.

so i wiil let you know whatr happens

Do you have someone that can help you with a car ride? You could have both rabbits loose with you on the backseat while someone else does the driving, or you could just sit in the backseat with the car parked but idling. Seems Cotton and Tiger can be checked with the 'earthquake' method, being shaken up etc.

Well! Petzy they seem to get along in the smaller confinement. we had them in a box, pretty big, again in the front room. and they circled and tried to fight we drug the box and moved it she jumped out and ran to her cage. So we put them back in the smaller box and they get on together fine, she groomed him just a bit. why do they circle and look like they will fight in the bigger area , I don't understand... I can only do 30 minute or so sessions in the small confinement, if i could use the bigger one i could put a litter box( neutral) in so they can do their thing during the bonding. and have them toghether longer?
i DON,T WANT TO USE THE BATH TUB IT IS ALOT BIGGER THEN THE BOX . and they are sometimes hard to control. when they start being aggressive.
Sometimes I feel like we are starting over, if they do this everytime we move them to a bigger area.
I don't know.
I think we are making progress but i am getting tired. Patience is wearing thin. "I know" you said to be patient..
till next time-

Monkeybun on here was in a similar situation, where her two would only get along in a very confined space. It is like they have an understanding in that basket, but outside of it they feel the need to challenge each other. This is because they have not sorted out who is in charge.
Some bonding rabbits only bond by being worn out, but you will need a way to stop their fighting at any given time to do this.

Whenever I was in a bonding scenario where I couldn't know which way a session would go, I would keep a pitcher of room temperature water within my reach so that if things got out of control I would dump that on the aggressing bunny's flank to break it up. I found it gave me some security knowing that I could stop them even if they were looking for blood. A measured, well-placed and unexpected splash of water is often the only thing that works on rabbits that are in fighting mode. Along those lines, you could hold a session in your bathtub with 2 cm of water at the bottom to give them a set of soggy feet. It has prevented some of my rabbits from going at each other that previously would fight in the bathtub. It generally gets them grooming themselves or just makes them motionless. A session like this should not exceed ten minutes. Next session you can use less water at the bottom until you get them to stay in a dry bathtub without fighting. Most rabbits do learn the association of running faucet and soggy feet.  If you do use water in any setup, your rabbits may need blow-drying afterwards which can also serve as a stressor between them. You could have them in a box and blowdry at their feet on low setting. If you have wet bunnies and can't blowdry them, make sure to set them up very cozy in a draft-free area after the session.

In the beginning, the sessions in a bigger place will be highly volatile and therefore you should keep these extremely short. You could set the basket with the two bunnies down in a larger space and let them hop out one after the other. Wear gloves and have measures handy to stop an attack. You might want to hold one rabbit in the larger and have the other one loose and then switch. You would be a shield.

Or, try the car ride.

 

Well it is the 2nd day in the bigger box,
she is grooming him and he groomed her just short. When i put them in the box they did their typical circle thing and he growled and stomped. and went to their corners.
when they looked like they might get aggressive i jiggled the box as if they were on a washmachine. Then they snuggle thats when the grooming statred.
I wanted to make the session a bit longer so i got a litter box and put in the corner there was no territorial disagreements over the litter box and they even ate ther favorite dryed apple chips and dryed dandlelion greens together, no aggressions. He pushes behind her or under her and puts his head down. It is funny they almost act like before the bond was broken however i know when i put them again in a bigger area they will show aggressions again. Although i am suprised at how well it went in this bigger box.
I Still do not know who is becoming the boss when he puts his head down she grooms. so maybe he is? she tries pushing her head under him but then gives in and grooms him. they have been in the box now for about 1 1/2 hrs no aggressions. only pushing for kisses( and there has been no stressor other then the box itself).They even bunny flopped together.
Iin all the sessions til now if he nipped her, she would go back at him , but she wouldn't start it. he has not nipped her today. Maybe there is a light at the end of the tunnel. Ohh! he is grooming her.
I am thinking about getting a playpen to put them in as a final step for bonding? Because I am running out of boxes Can I put it in the room that they share together? or in the frontroom? It is Semi neutral, the dogs also use the room. This is where I have been holding the sessions In The boxes.
well it time to put them back in there cages for awhile. i wil see what will happen at the next session.
till next time.

I would use the frontroom and be careful when taking the sessions to the playpen; in the beginning, try holding one rabbit on your lap while you are sitting in the pen and have the other bun explore around you, then switch. At some point you will want to let them both loose in the playpen together but sit in there with them. Wear gloves and watch their dynamics unfold. Chasing and nipping at fur is OK, it has to happen, but watch for escalating aggression. If they get upset with each other, grab them both, put them on your lap and stroke hard to end on a good note.

We had another bunny date in the big box. Everything went well and there were no problems. They were together for about 2 hours with litter box and hay.

Then we decided to put them in the pen, which is standing in their room. We put blankets on the sides, so they can't see where they are. But that didn't work for too long, because Tiger jumped out before we had the top on. At first they seemed to start circling, but we shook a bottle with pennies in it and they stopped. Now after 45 min. they are doing very good. There are no agressions or signs of agressions and they are even grooming each other, flopping over and eating together out of one bowl. This was not possibe before without fighting. They are behaving as if they were never apart from each other. We have decided to leave them in the pen over night, if nothing happens in the mean time, and see how they are tomorrow. Since they are in my/their room I will hear if anyhting happens.

I finally have some pictures and a video of the two in their pen. Cotton (the black and white one) is shoving her head under his tummy like she has been doing the last few dates.

My mother (the one who has been writing the most posts and doing lots of the bunny dates) and I are very optimistic that the night will go well!

Can't wait to see the video! Great work, CottonTiger
You are very creative, to put the blankets along the sides of the pen = great idea. I like your setup for this bonding.
Sending calm vibes for a successful overnight session!

We just had a brief fight and don't know how it happened, but we broke it up right away. Now they are back to laying beside each other again. Now we are not sure, if we should keep them in there over night anymore. At the moment we think it's best to just put them back in seperate cages.

It does seem that they have overcome their difficulties, but still haven't decided who is boss.

Still trying to upload the video.......