Mr.Bill 
Erie, PA
Posts: 167
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| 03/02/2010 08:31 PM |
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Well, we had tried bonding Vinny with our bonded pair, Addie and Benjie, for awhile now with no good results. So my wife suggests we just get Vin a girlfriend. She had spotted a Flem on petfinder. So we drove just shy of 3 hours, taking Vin with us. Her name is Nessa and she's about 5~6 months old. Everything went really well for a first visit, so we adopted Nessa and brought her home.
It was pretty much love at first site. No fighting, no biting, no car rides. Vin was pretty humpy, but other than that they were playing and loafing together. They were sharing an enclosure 2 days later.
Things were great for about a week an a half. Until...
The way is works is Addie and Ben have their own bedroom and Vin and Nessa had another. Durning the day, Ben and Addie get the run of the living room and I was carrying Vin and Nes downstairs to the family room, where they had the run of that all day. So one day I carry Vin down, go upstairs and get Nessa, and bring her down.
Well, this day Nessa came out of her shell or something, because she got extremely humpy (all buns are spayed/neutered). Vin wanted no part of that. Actually, it seemed he didn't understand what she was doing. So he turned and nipped, then she nipped, then it was all out war. And it's been that way for over a week now.
We have a large carrier and they're fine in that. Even if we just let the carrier sit (no rides, etc.) they're fine. They'll snuggle up close, Vin will even groom her. But as soon as they get room (ie the tub) it's right back to fighting. We're not sure what to try next. |
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RabbitPam
 Forum Leader
Florida
Posts: 8555
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| 03/03/2010 05:26 AM |
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I think you have the potential for a really good bond ultimately. But it looks like they are now contending for the place of dominant bun and territory owner. They will sort it out themselves and come to an agreement, but it will take time and you are right to want to prevent all injury in the process.
My best recommendation is to browse through both the Bonding section in Info. from the drop down banner above, and read some of the more difficult bonding threads for suggestions that were tried on bunnies that were not getting along. Many members have gone through this with ultimate success.
In the meantime I hope someone here will post exactly what you can try as your next step. My thought is to move on to an open air laundry basket on top of a moving dryer, so they are not enclosed in the carrier, but still have the simulated motion bond.
Or, when in the tub, put a piece of banana on each of their heads, so they will want to nibble it off the other instead of fight. |
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| Pamburger with a Little Sammykins on the Side. |
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Petzy
Forum Leader
Northern AB Canada
Posts: 5938
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| 03/03/2010 08:07 AM |
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I think what is going on here is that Nessa, especially being a large breed of rabbit, is still maturing and is going through phases like a teenager. Young rabbits are known to be volatile and unpredictable even when they're altered. She is testing Vin to see if she can't be in charge. You may see much back and forth between them until one of them submits permanently. During this time they have to be supervised so that you can prevent a serious fight. How bad was the one they had? When they want to fight in the bathtub, can you stop them? |
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 "what happened?
did something happen or can I just go back to my hay?" |
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Mr.Bill
Erie, PA
Posts: 167
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| 03/03/2010 11:10 AM |
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I read about the banana trick last night and we'll give that a try. So far it's been car rides and I have tried the washer and dryer. In the confined space they're great. Even when all I do is put them in the carrier and leave it sit still on the floor. But as soon as they have room to move, they're at it.
The fights have been as bad as they can get. The worst was when they first went at it while they were loose in the family room. There was way too much room and it was hard to get them quickly. Vin has a huge scar in his ear and Nessa has a puncture where, to us it would be like the bridge of our nose. There's nothing that's not closely supervised now.
It didn't dawn on me about Nessa's age. When the first fight happened, it was completely a shock. It's like someone flipped a light switch. Within just a matter of a few minutes everything changed. Up until then you couldn't keep them apart. |
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Petzy
Forum Leader
Northern AB Canada
Posts: 5938
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| 03/03/2010 11:34 AM |
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I am glad to read that inspite of the nasty fight they are still tolerating each other well in the confined space. Focus on that confined space for at least two full weeks since their fight left them injured. They need to really cool it and heal up. Don't worry, you can still get them bonded lastingly.
A large space is where rabbits can be rabbits and that includes the attempted fighting during bonding. Once your two weeks of confined sessions are up, I would move the sessions to the car. I would stay away from the large space for a while because rabbits remember and want to retaliate. Right now you want to kill time with them without risking another run-in so stick to what works.
edit: by moving the sessions to the car I meant not just rides but using the car as a new weird space for them. The car can be parked for this. The rabbits can interact loose, not in a carrier. |
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| "what happened?
did something happen or can I just go back to my hay?" |
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Petzy
Forum Leader
Northern AB Canada
Posts: 5938
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| 03/03/2010 11:51 AM |
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When was Nessa spayed? |
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| "what happened?
did something happen or can I just go back to my hay?" |
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Mr.Bill
Erie, PA
Posts: 167
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| 03/03/2010 12:36 PM |
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Looking at the paperwork
- dob 10/17/2009
- surrendered to ARL 12/13/2009
- altered 12/16/2009
- adopted and brought to her new forever-home (no matter what the bonding outcome is) 2/12/2010
We'll do just the carrier only for the next couple weeks. I'll do it multiple times a day. Does an hour or so at a time sound alright? They're sitting on top the dryer right now. Thank goodness for the no-hot-air-fluff-dry option. |
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Petzy
Forum Leader
Northern AB Canada
Posts: 5938
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| 03/03/2010 12:58 PM |
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Posted By Mr.Bill on 03/03/2010 12:36 PM
Looking at the paperwork
- dob 10/17/2009
- surrendered to ARL 12/13/2009
- altered 12/16/2009
- adopted and brought to her new forever-home (no matter what the bonding outcome is) 2/12/2010
That is an incredibly early spay. Wow. At 8 weeks? Wow.
Anyways I see it has been a long time since that was done.
A whole hour confined like that is really long because they can't do routines if they're stuck in a box. 20 or 30 minutes will suffice. |
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| "what happened?
did something happen or can I just go back to my hay?" |
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Barbie
Posts: 1584
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| 03/03/2010 01:05 PM |
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Good luck with the bonding!
As far as length of bonding sessions... just play it by ear. When I started bonding my two bunnies, I did very short sessions (20 minutes) twice daily. It's just up to you to judge their reactions and end the session before they get too frustrated. The main point is that you always want to end on a good note - even if it means shoving the two bunnies together side by side with you holding the two bunnies on their shoulders so thy cant attack each other- even if they're forced into that position at least they're touching and not fighting, which, they way I see it is a good ending if you can't get them to snuggle or groom. Also, consistency and repetition is key. I think initially, more frequent short sessions are better then one long session daily. |
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Mr.Bill
Erie, PA
Posts: 167
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| 03/03/2010 02:47 PM |
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Shorter sessions... got it. I didn't think of that either. I suppose more than 20 minutes would be frustrating for them. So I'll cut it back to just 20 minutes, a few time a day.
Right now, out-time for all the buns is almost the same. Addie and Ben still get the living room. I've been splitting up out-time in the family room for Vin and Nessa. There is a litterpan, grass, food, and water set up in the family room for them, as I don't want them running upstairs to their rooms because Addie and Ben are out.
Is it alright to let them share those? We did with Addie and Ben in the beginning. They even swapped enclosures. They were set up side by side.
Right now Vin is in their bedroom and Nessa is set up in the guest bathroom. I think we're going to set up another pen in with Vin so they're atleast within view of each other. |
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Petzy
Forum Leader
Northern AB Canada
Posts: 5938
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| 03/03/2010 02:53 PM |
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Just save some areas for neutral turf . You may need those later on. |
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| "what happened?
did something happen or can I just go back to my hay?" |
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Barbie
Posts: 1584
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| 03/03/2010 03:11 PM |
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When I was bonding my bunnies, I always let the out to play separately in the living room and had no issues. The only problem you might run into would be possible poop wars. Swapping enclosures is good too. That way they get used to each other's scent in their living space.
You mentioned that they had a really bad fight and open wounds... did you get them looked at by a vet? You don't want that to get infected. |
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Mr.Bill
Erie, PA
Posts: 167
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| 03/04/2010 08:05 AM |
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Yes, we did have to have both looked at.
I was a bit surprised when they told us Nessa's age and that she was already spayed. Nessa was surrendered with 5 sisters. They came in from a farm... you know, the real bad kind. Well, when asked, the owner gave them the supposed d.o.b. But during intake when they were examined the vet said they were definately older than what the owner had claimed.
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Petzy
Forum Leader
Northern AB Canada
Posts: 5938
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| 03/04/2010 08:07 AM |
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Posted By Mr.Bill on 03/04/2010 08:05 AM
Yes, we did have to have both looked at.
Nessa was surrendered with 5 sisters. They came in from a farm... you know, the real bad kind.
Lucky girl is with you now.  |
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| "what happened?
did something happen or can I just go back to my hay?" |
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TARM
VA
Posts: 1281
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| 03/16/2010 04:02 PM |
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Your flemmie has loppy ears! Are you sure she's not a french lop? |
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