Ok so I've tried and then quit and then tried again but never stuck with it.  My new years resolution is to get Archie and Gracie bonded to Sandy.  In my past posts I've mentioned that Gracie and Sandy (which I was working on bonding first since they're both females and don't get along) were fighting.  So far I've done 4 bonding sessions.  I have my gloves in hand and a grid to put between the two.  Gracie's ears go forward everytime she's really close to Sandy.  So each time they get close I just put the grid between them in fear that one of them might get hurt.  The first day (back to bonding) when I put Gracie and Sandy together wasn't to bad.  Gracie did pee but it was because she had to go to the bathroom the first time.  She lunged at Sandy and sprayed the second time.  She even pooped a few times.  The second day I put them together I believe this was the short day...my friend called me up that I hadn't talked to in awhile.  I tried to multitask but it didn't work.  Gracie peed and was going to step in it (plus I was by myself), so I just ended it there.  It only lasted a few minutes if that.  The third day I picked Gracie up like I always do (craddeling her like a baby) and I went into the kitchen where Sandy was already in.  I held on to her and for some reason I thought let me sit down and hold her and see what happens.  I was still concerned about who was attacking who because as soon as one got close to the other they would lung.  Sandy hopped over to me and sniffed Gracie who was in a trance.  And what happened after that???!!!  Absolutely nothing!  Sandy didn't attack Gracie.  So now I know who is the one that attacks (Gracie).  I held Gracie for a few minutes while Sandy got used to her.  I calmly talked to them and (I know I'm weird) told Gracie "Look she's not attacking you, you have nothing to be scared of".  She wimpered a bit and I gave them both a raisin for being so good.  I let Gracie down.  She didn't pee or poop the whole time.  I even washed off some lettuce and they ate together (well not close but close enough on opposite sides of the paper towel).  I'm still using the grid though.  At the end of the session which lasted about 20 min. (woohoo!) I held Gracie again and let Sandy sniff her and gave them a treat.  Today I did the same thing.  But towards the end of 15 min. Gracie wanted out, she was climbing the gate and just being aggressive.  She was even attacking the grid.  So I said that's it and I held her for Sandy and gave them a treat while petting them both.  My husband was home to take some video.  So what do you guys think, am I making progress?  I know it's going to take awhile but I think this technique is helping Gracie realize Sandy isn't as big of a threat.  

Posted By jerseygirl on 01/10/2010 02:27 PM
I thought similar - Ski, you may have invented a new bonding technique.
So you think Gracie is aware of Sandy being there when "tranced"? I'm wondering what would happen if you can reverse things and have Gracie approach Sandy in that posistion?

Woohoo new bonding technique!!  I thought maybe someone had tried it before.  I don't know what made me think of that.    I wish I could trance her but Sandy doesn't like being held when she's out and I haven't been able to put her in a trance (hence I need to call the vet maybe to get her nails trimmed....she's such a pain ).  I'm going to do another bonding session in a minute.  Maybe I will put Sandy by me and pet her and see what Gracie does.  I don't want Gracie to get jealous of me giving her attention though.  I so anxious to try to bond Archie and Sandy but I KNOW I have to wait though at least until Gracie stops attacking, right?  

ETA:  I just finished bonding.  Lasted about 20 min until Gracie attacked Sandy *sigh*.  I think Gracie gets a little freaked out after the trance and it takes her a minute or two to figure out what's going on.  I put lettuce out and she'd eat a little and then snap back into it like  "must defend myself if Brown Bunny gets near me...wait is that lettuce nom nom...wait must defend myself against Brown Bunny...oooo lettuce nom nom"   I finally pushed her by the lettuce until she ate the whole thing by Brown Bu...I mean Sandy   Everything was going pretty smoothly.  Gracie went by Sandy and I immediately put the grid up but she didn't do anything right awhile so I put the grid back and wouldn't you know it she tricked me and attacked Sandy!  Only lasted a moment but a moment to get a tuff of fur in Gracie's mouth.  But luckilly that was it and no cuts (Gracie's teeth aren't to sharp to do any major damage anyways).  After that Gracie freaked out, peed on the floor and went by the gate climbing it (well stretching across it) and then shoving her nose into it to try to get out like some crazy bun.  I held her and she flung her feet her a tantrum while hitting my hand (ouch!).  So much for ending it on a good note.  I should have stopped after they ate well together (before the attack).    *sigh*  I can't stress them out with a car ride in the snowy weather.  (maybe when it warms up a bit).  Bath tub no because of the door attached to the tub, basement sink no because it's high and I'm afraid they'll jump out and hurt themselves.  I keep going back to the "easy way" but I know we can't afford a 4th bun and I"d be worried of Archie and Gracie not liking him from their cage.  Gosh I wish our house was bigger and we had more money.

Posted By Petzy on 01/10/2010 11:38 PM
The only reason not to hold meetings between Sandy and Archie would be if Gracie still attacked Archie for having Sandy's scent. In that case it would be best to bond the two girls first.

I skipped last night, I was feeling a bit off so I gave them a break for the day.  Gracie has never attacked Archie (at the extreme she TRIED to hump him).  I think maybe tonight I'll be Sandy and Archie together (or tomorrow) because I want to make sure there's a possibility that they'll bond too.  I would hate to go through months (if I last that long haha!) to bond Gracie and Sandy and then put Archie in and Sandy absolutely hate Archie (and he doesn't really fight back).  And after their bonding session, I'll try to snuggle with him and get my scent on him so he doesn't smell like her.  But their cages are next to each other and she's starting to shed so her hair goes by their cage.  I don't know if it'll be that big of a deal if he has a little bit of her scent on him.  I'll do the same thing with the gloves and grid for protection.  I'll let you know how it goes

Don't bother with rubbing the scent off. If Gracie does not attack Archie then him having Sandy's scent will be very helpful.

Just did a bonding session with Archie and Sandy and let me tell you I wish every bunny was like Archie!  He is just the friendliest rabbit.  We did a 20 min session. (could have done longer but thought I should keep it short for their first bond).  Sandy lunged at him once because she's a little defensive when being brushed up against her rear.  I was really surprised that he didn't try to hump her.  He did put his nose towards her back but I said no and he stopped.  He even groomed her several times.  I think Sandy's just not used to other rabbits since when he got near her she's tense up but I'd pet her and she'd calm down.  When she attacked him and I seperated them poor Archie just stood there like "I didn't do anything" instead of running away.  But all in all it was a good session.  I just wish that Gracie would be like Archie.  Oh and no worries with Gracie, right now they're cuddled up next to each other falling asleep.    Maybe he'll tell her it's not so bad hehe!

Posted By skibunny8503 on 01/12/2010 11:38 AM

Just did a bonding session with Archie and Sandy and let me tell you I wish every bunny was like Archie!  He is just the friendliest rabbit.  We did a 20 min session. (could have done longer but thought I should keep it short for their first bond).  Sandy lunged at him once because she's a little defensive when being brushed up against her rear.  I was really surprised that he didn't try to hump her.  He did put his nose towards her back but I said no and he stopped.  He even groomed her several times.  I think Sandy's just not used to other rabbits since when he got near her she's tense up but I'd pet her and she'd calm down.  When she attacked him and I seperated them poor Archie just stood there like "I didn't do anything" instead of running away.  But all in all it was a good session.  I just wish that Gracie would be like Archie.  Oh and no worries with Gracie, right now they're cuddled up next to each other falling asleep.    Maybe he'll tell her it's not so bad hehe!

You could bond Archie to Sandy tightly and use Archie as a mediator bunny. Sometimes a trio bond can be easier than a paired bond if a pair such as Gracie and Sandy seem stuck in a rut.

Posted By skibunny8503 on 01/14/2010 07:27 AM
So do you mean bond Sandy and Archie tightly and then put them together with Gracie?

I'm a little afraid that if this trio bonding ever does become a success that one of them (probably Sandy) will still be "alone". I just want them to all be happy.

Bonding Archie to Sandy first might affect his relationship with Gracie. Once you move on to trio sessions, one of the three will become a "third wheel", but only for a time. For the trio sessions you want your husband's help for an extra set of hands.

When you are making a trio out of a bonded pair and a new bunny, it can change the existing pair's (Archie/Gracie) closeness. This is why people find trios hard to do. Ideally, you would want Sandy to be the "least bunny" in the trio for a while because being young and not previously bonded it will be easy for her to earn the other's friendship over time.

I'm taking your advice with trying to do Sandy and Archie and bond them tightly together.  I was rotating them and pretty much have Sandy and Gracie's behaviors down (Archie doesn't do much except groom).  Well today I put Sandy and Archie together but I decided instead of the kitchen I'll put them in a smaller space like the bathroom, they don't get in there much since Gracie likes to attack the toliet brush and Sandy likes to grab tissues from the trash and run away with them   So moved all the stuff that they can get into out of the way, rolled up the rug and put it in the tub and put the trash infront of the toliet so they can't get around and hide or attack and I can't get to them.  Put a baby gate up and stuck them in together as I stood close by...well inches away, I guess I'm really protective.  I thought I'd get the normal Archie grooming and Sandy nipping a bit but this time Sandy went at Archie and pulled out a good chunk of his fur   Sandy has now officially scared off Archie!    He did seem like he was going to go after her a few times but he had a running start and I stopped him from attacking (which I might add he never attacks but I'm glad he's defending himself now).  They lasted about 15-20 min. until he finally groomed her and I ended it on a good note.  I should have waited to do laundry until tomorrow darn!  Husband's on afternoons again and so I can't do to much stress bonding because I need someone to help me.  

I just tell myself to stick with it and it'll be worth it in the end.  Cheaper than a 4th rabbit, that's for sure. 

I've been bonding Archie and Sandy for the past few days and it's been going ok.  She attacks him when he gets to close and brushes up against her, especially the side and he likes to do that for some reason.  He grooms her but is being more defensive.  He'll run pass her now since if he does it slow then she'll attack.  I DID get her to groom him 2 times (really quick though and then demanded him to groom her).  She's very demanding in the grooming.  I've made it now that when she attacks him once I yell NO and pick her up and warn her and if she does it again I put her in the scary tub for not even a minute.  I put the shower doors back and forth, flush the toilet anything to try to scare them a little.  All in all it's been about the same and we'll have to do a car ride or something soon to move forward.  I do have a problem though...Archie keeps wanting groomed from her but he doesn't get any, and he hardly gets any from Gracie.  So after our bonding session he chases Gracie and tries to mount her.  He's just sexually frusturated I think.  And I give him the chance if he's behind her and I'm petting Sandy to mount her but I think he's afraid of her (Gracie NEVER attacked Archie, she only mounted him once or twice when bonding)  He was THE MAN for Gracie but when Sandy and Archie are together Sandy wears the pants in that relationship.  Any ideas on how to get him to stop, it's not really fair to Gracie.  Should I just give him lots and lots of attention after the session?  What do I do about Sandy and Gracie, just wait until Sandy and Archie are bonded more and then start back up on them or do a trio session?  That 4th bunny keeps looking better and better haha!

Ok I think we're getting somewhere now...hopefully!  I did a bonding session with Archie and Sandy and the first 10 min was a bit tense.  They started nipping at each other more than usual.  I got fed up and I grabbed Sandy and put her in the tub for a "time out" but then I thought, you know what Archie was biting her too so he goes in the tub too!  They were both in the tub and they still tried to nip, I yelled no really loud but nothing...hmm....IDEA!  I turned the water to the tub on really quick, just enough for a little water to splash on them if they were close and to scare them.  I did this about ever 20 to 30 seconds or so for 15 more minutes.  Well...I stressed them out alright!  Both breathing heavily and Archie even thumped twice and was snuggled next to her.  I'll point out that as soon as I started doing the water Archie immiedately became the protector and wanted to let Sandy know and got brave enough to mount her!  I petted her as he did his thing for a few minutes and I pushed him off not to let him do it too long and have her get mad and start attacking again.  He even hopped past her and she didn't do anything.  He's a little paranoid with her though because if she moves her head he'll jump by her like he's ready to attack.  So that was why there was one scuffle during that time (that and I let up on the water a little so they didn't get too stressed).  They didn't care for their feet being a little wet but oh well.  I'm not sure if that will work on Gracie or not but it's worth a try once I start back up on them.  Oh and Archie and Gracie haven't fought at all...he does mount her sometimes though.  He likes to try to mount her while they're in the litter box because she can't go anywhere.

I wish I had my camera or I would have taken pictures...I'll have to remember next time.  But I'm pretty happy about today's session!  

I might have to try the box thing tonight!  Leaning over the tub can strain your neck after awhile.  Well they've been doing pretty well in the tub.  I did something different last night but I don't think I'll do it again since it really didn't do anything but it was interesting.  I left them in the tub for about a 1/2 hour.  Then I took them out of the tub in the bathroom floor to see how they would react.  Well it's weird because in the tub Archie will run over to Sandy and thump, groom her and just sit by her.  He even mounts her...a little to much I'd say but I pet her and tell her it's ok and give her a raisin when he's done (I pushed him off a few times last night because he was going over board and I didn't want her to attack him).  As soon as I let them out they ran by the gate (hoping to be free and back to their cage).  Archie wouldn't mount Sandy at all when outside and she nipped him twice.    After they attacked I put them in the tub and it went back to him mounting her and she just sat there not knowing where she was or what was going on....he was her protector.  I took them out again and they were a little better...I think I even saw her groom him really quickly before she laid her head underneath him.  

It's like he's king of the tub but she's queen of the bathroom floor, I don't get it.    Maybe tonight I'll put them both in the travel cage and watch some tv while I bounce them around.  We haven't done a car ride because of my husband's weird shifts and our busy schedule during the weekends but hopefully we'll get to it soon...maybe this Saturday?? 

I didn't get video of last night but I got some from the night before.  It's a bit boring but it's progress.  Here's a picture of them and there's 2 videos below.

Ugh I'm a bit frusturated today.  I put them in the tub for a little bit then put them in the travel cage together and walked over to the spare bedroom to stress them a bit.  I setup the x-pen and made it pretty small and put Archie and Sandy in it.  First few moments were ok and then Sandy nipped him and then he nipped back and didn't trust her anymore and then he would attack....they  just kept fighting.  I used a spray bottle (yay I finally bought one that works!) and sprayed them.  It was working for a bit and they would stop for a moment but go back at it.  They got kind of wet   I got fed up, put them back in the cage and back in the tub and they were fine.  What the heck?!  And another thing, Archie has been obsessively humping Gracie!  He's doing it all the time, I don't know if he thinks he's going to loose or to Sandy or what.  I just know that this is so very hard and today I just don't have enough patience.  

Those days happen during bonding. You did the right thing by going back to the bathtub with them. When things go wrong, always go back to what worked. Nipping, humping is all part of them sorting out their relationship. I wonder if you can add a stressor in their xpen. Like a blow drier on low setting  instead of spray bottle, or even a cassette player with a weird soundtrack... something not soothing...once I used a pot with a big metal spoon to clonk when mine got nippy. car ride would be good too now.