Update:  I shut the buns into the rabbit room last Sunday, so it's almost a week now...And NO improvement!

It's all Jersey - I can't figure her out.  The weather has been mild so I took my chance to put them into retraining for a longer stint. Last time I could only do 3 days due to the heat, but that time I noticed a difference after the first night. This time - nothing.  I guess I'll continue with it but I'm just a bit  dejected.

I haven't seen this thread before now. Sorry to hear that Jersey is still being a trouble maker. As you know, I've had my problems as well. Someone still pees in a specific corner in the bunny room...I hardly notice it now. I've sort of accepted that I need to wipe it up and consider them 100 % litter trained hahaha

It used to be a lot worse and the things that worked for me was:
 

• Watch Molly like a hawk. I would feed her all her food in the litterbox, give her a treat whenever she was in the litterbox and praise her and give lots of treats when she did her business. This actually taught her to stop peeing everywhere else constantly, but it took a while.
• Confine them. I've done this twice and it worked wonders every time. I would confine them for approximately 3 days and all marking outside the cage would stop for a long time.
• Wash the floor constantly. Those days when I am in fact tired of the pee in the corner, I wash down the floor thoroughly once a day. When I do that it actually keeps them from peeing...for a few days at least.

It's interesting if you think that she does it for attention. I have a cat that does this. Well, not with me, but when he is at my parents' place and they don't feed him quickly enough, let him out or something like that, then he sprays. If you find a solution, I'm sure my parents would like to know  You know, you can do clicker training with cats to handle this problem...so you should be able to train Jersey as well. Teach her to ask for your attention in another way. Do you wipe up the pee instantly? Maybe you should ignore it for a while and not wipe it up when she is around if that just reenforces her behaviour.

I actually did this with Molly when I first got her and she was terrible with the marking. Finally, I just thought that if she wants to have the room smell of her pee, then so be it. So I let it be like that for 3 days, and then she magically stopped. Our war of nerves had apparently ended...

Thanks Karla. Gosh your cat sounds just like Jersey. It does seem food related when I'm in the room. She'll follow me around waiting for me to feed her something. I try spend time out there with them without giving food so she won't always expect it. She settle for pets then if she's in the mood. Often though, she'll just line up and pee if I'm ignoring her begging. Other than that, I just find the puddles when I go out there. Usually next to the litter boxes, also middle of room, sometimes near or in the food bowl. I try put that up out the way. I guess giving food or pets = attention.

I do clean it up asap. Actually, I make a point of cleaning it all before anything else. The thing with confinement is it's tricky to clean it up without her seeing. I guess I could try leave it, spend some time in there with them (without feeding) and leave without cleaning it up. Don't know what she'll make of that. The floor has a slight slope so it means the puddles run right across the room... I guess they can get grotty for a short time if it means the space with be cleaner in the long run.

I have been able to prompt her to go to the box. A one point I felt like I was toileting her. I'd pop her in the box whenever she was in the room with me. Since confinement I haven't done that. She has used it in my presence and I usually reward her. I have seen she'll pee on the floor when peeved at me but also sometimes if Rumball is using the box. Like a dominance thing. Both can fit in there and she will also use it while he's in there. Just sometimes she has an issue and decides to pee beside it.

So, it's kinda hard to work out exactly what all the triggers are. Some are obvious - like today I prevented her from escaping outside, she immediately got on the phone book near my shoes and peed. The confinement doesn't seem to be working. As I mentioned before, this area is the major problem spot, she is good about her habits around the house except the kitchen sometimes.

Like if I were to confine them elsewhere, I'm pretty certain she'd be ok with her box. I've considered this and doing an overhaul of the rabbit area...but likely they won't respond to that too well either. 
 

Sorry if I've been repetitious - I can't quite recall all I've previously written (vented) on this.  Jersey reminds me of an impulsive child with this behaviour, like she can't quite control a reaction to something. I spent some time with my 2 year old nephew today who will push limits sometimes, testing the things he knows he shouldn't do.  It's hard to discipline them when they're so darn cute!

So she is obviously doing it as a way of telling you to do what she wants...I really think it would help to ignore it. If you don't react to it at all (don't say a word, don't wipe it up, don't look at it), then she has no point in doing it. And then continue to give her treats whenever she is in the litter box. Make sure you feed her before she pees and just walk out the room demonstratively without saying a word, when she pees outside the box.

And if you are interested in doing clicker training, I know some of the english books on clicker training cats actually have chapters on this.

On clicker training; I've never taken time to look into it thoroughly - about the methods and benefits. Maybe it's time I did. I do use some noises and a whistle with them.

I think I can do what you have described - ignore the pee. I'm tired of mopping! Anything is worth a try. I'm on the verge of just letting them back into rest of house because she'd be out there less and therefore peeing less!

After what I wrote above about being like a child, I was thinking I am looking at things wrong - from human perspective. I mean, the reason we can "litter train" them is that we are taking advantage of their natural instinct to toilet in a designated spot. I'm thinking the other reasons for urinating (in a warren situation) would be territorial and dominance. Dominance would more be spraying so perhaps territorial marking is the key here. She pees all over the room to mark it. Like she'll tolerate me going in there as I'm the food bearer...but "if you're not here for that - then I need to define that this is MY space *pees*. Also toward Rumball sometimes..."yeah, you can use the box but just so you know *pees* this is MY box. 
 

Like with those dog behavioural trainers on tv (ceasar milan, victoria stilwell) it always goes back to basics with the dogs instincts and pack mentality. I need to think Bunny!

Griffin was awful to littertrain- he was housed in a large dog crate and he was so messy we bought another litterbox so the whole floor of his cage was practically litter box covered- he sitll had his shelf to lounge on.  Now that he has been moved into a pen beside Schroeder- there are some marking poos but the peeing has much improved.  Unfortunately I don't have any advice for helping Jerseys issue at all.  But I know how frustrating it can be- I think my husband did not even LIKE Griffin because his litter habits were so messy and disgusting- and that caused me to be frustrated with Griffin AND my husband.

Now that he's got it I hope his habits remain good Katnip, for peace and sanity!

 

And then continue to give her treats whenever she is in the litter box. Make sure you feed her before she pees and just walk out the room demonstratively without saying a word, when she pees outside the box.

Karla, are you meaning make sure I feed her (as in a meal) before she pees OR make sure I feed a treat while she's on her box before she pees? If you mean the first one, I'm not sure I can control that.

I've been ranting about the pee quite a bit but it is also ALOT of poo.  She just seems to have gotten worse.  I am really chasing my tail on this. Yesterday I was thinking of letting them have space back - now I'm thinking I need to reduce it more.

Posted By RabbitPam on 03/07/2010 05:18 PM
Since they do tend to go while eating, you may want to watch her and not let her out until you see her pee, so at least she will have emptied her bladder even if she does it again for marking. That might provide a clue as to her reasons for the pee.

Impatient with our bunnies? Us? *rolls eyes in sympathy*

Well it's the rabbit room that's being marked. So even though I've kept them in there it's still being messed pretty bad.  Do you think I could reduce the space(pen an are off) in there then not let her out of that to eat until she uses the box?  I have started toileting her again.  I stand at the box with a pellet ready and I say "Box, box". She gets in and trys to have it so I keep repeating "box, box". She gets it, she'll pee then have her pellet. Sort of positive reinforcement as well as reducing the amount of times she can pee on the floor. I can't believe how much she can hold though.   I don't know if this will help with pooping though as she'll just think she has to pee each time. The poop just falls out of her. It doesn't even appear like shiny territorial poo.  I had it so good when she was young, she just used the box right off.

 

*sigh* *Sigh* *SIGH*

Jersey is really getting the better of me! Mopping up 5-6 times a night is wearing VERY thin. My shout of "NO" and herding her to the box is failing. She'll just reposition, pee, then run off.

I was reading a little on attention seeking. 2 things were advised: Completely ignore OR squirt with spray of water. Right now I'm thinking of investing in some more spray bottles or even a water pistol and a holster.

The evenings are the worst. I think food is one of the big triggers. Waiting for food or the food is finished and she wants more. I often go to collect the salad plate to find pee puddles.

I did also see her go to use a box Rumball was in so she backed up and went on the spot, even though a double size litter box was vacant. I've also tried putting just a paper litter in the smaller additional box to see if she prefered it. It had an appeal for about 2 hours, then same old. I tried to Rumball proof it too, so she could have her own exclusive toilet. But he was able to get into it anyway.

I was looking back at some old posts to get an idea when this first started to get out of hand. I mentioned it when Karla was having problems with Molly back in October. I actually can't recall if the marking from bonding stopped and then this intensified. It's a long time for a bad habit to become entrenched. My fault there. I'm just not that hopeful that I can "fix" this...
 

I am going to try confining them again in even smaller space. Just need cooler patch of weather or to borrow an AC for their area. I really need to do it where the urinating is worse.  It the whole "back to basics" thing and I don't really have any other methods to work other than some of the attention seeking methods - but I don't believe it is all related to that behaviour.

@ Cassi, I'm assuming you are on the road now so don't know if you'll see this. I'm wondering if Charlie is doing this since you've been reunited, or since the car trip? Or was this an old habit of his?
 

Thanks for the ongoing suggestions guys.

RabbitPam, I can guess that if I feed their greens in the box, Jersey will finish her greens, jump out the box, look around then pee on the floor. I am currently combatting the pee after the greens habit by feeding them in the living room. She won't pee on the carpet there. She will go out to the rabbit area after though, looking for food, nibble some hay and pee a bit.

I have a large double size box plus 2 additional boxes currently. I'll add hay to all plus one with just hay and see how that goes.

I'm pretty certain I'm dealing with:

• Attention peeing.  Ignoring this is working I believe. She appears confused then trys to clean up the puddle by sipping it - ick. I do my best to wait til she's gone before I clean it up. Will have to be consistent here. Also am giving her non-food related attention where possible. I think this helps too.
• Over marking. HRS mentions this in an article. Where rabbits might mark with poop, then urinate to underline their signature.  I believe she is being territorial and marking and this has just become habit now.
• Possible dislike of the box, litter or sharing the box.  Hard to know, I have seen her go use them normally with no issue. I'm using wood pellets, but have just paper litter in one to see preferences.  I would like to trial setting up a box only she can use but not sure how. Ideas welcome!!  I tried a cardboard box over litterbox with small entry holes, but Rumball managed to get in anyway!  POSITIVE REINFORCEMENT is working also. I prompt her to use her box and she gets a pellet reward. Hopefully it'd become habit, that positive experience in always using the box will override whatever other dislikes she is having. Hopefully combo of her not getting desired result from littering out of box + positive experience from using box will = happy people and happy bunnies.

Ah, well I have small improvements then bad days so....
My 'hard work" has just been cleaning up. I must admit my inconsistancy in managing this issue has certainly not helped and enabled her. I have been having success at getting her to use the box (mostly during the evenings when the urinating is most frequent). I say "box box" while standing near it and she gets a pellet when she gets in.  A couple times I  even said "do wees" & she did on cue! lol A coincidence I think...

I've suspected some of her posturing to pee stance in other areas of the house, when I'm there to see it, is a game to her. Because I caution her and herd her to the box, she goes then gets treat. So sometimes I think she's initiating it. Again, attention seeking maybe....  Or her training me!

Jersey, I saw you mention litterbox upgrades in my bunny projects thread. It reminded me of your troubles here.

I don't think it is possible to keep Rumball out of her litterbox as long as they live together.

I wonder if you haven't inadvertently encouraged Jersey's accidents because you give her attention around peeing behaviors, such as treat for going in the box. I would ignore her toileting events and I would eliminate the grated litterboxes. I would also try something softer than woodstove pellets. I think it could help to create a marked difference in feel between her toilet spot and anywhere else, therefore I woud look for a soft litter material, and no more grates. This is just a stab in the dark.

Is she free-range again?

I had experience problems with Neigey after bonding him, he would just poop as he hopped along and had many peeing accidents.

Thanks Petzy.  Is that what worked for Neigey? Softer litter material?  Jers is exactly like this, pooping as she moves, peeing "accidents".

I've tried just paper based litter minus the grate and though both seemed to like getting in it, the novelty wore off after a while.   Won't hurt to keep trying.

I don't think it is possible to keep Rumball out of her litterbox as long as they live together.

Yes. I guess it was a theory of a trigger I wanted to test out.  She does not seem territorial toward him in any way - even when there's a plate of food.

I wonder if you haven't inadvertently encouraged Jersey's accidents because you give her attention around peeing behaviors

I have wondered this too.  She'll even do a small pee to get a treat, then later I'll find she's peed next to the box like she's saved some in her bladder for later.  Her ammunition.

I'm planning to take them to my parents and stay for a few days. This will give me a chance to observe her habits out of her environment.