Ok. So I've been terribly slack on not getting on top of this problem sooner so it's my own fault if things take a while to turn around.  I've just gotten so confused as to what exactly is going on too.  I won't go into it all but try summarise things as they stand today.

Jersey is main culpit.  Habits deteriorated during bonding (to be expected) but never improved. So since June. Generally it's the bunny area that is messed, not the rest of the house where they spend alot of time.  Though the kitchen is still a place she'll mess from time to time. 

The peeing on the floor is VERY deliberate and dominance toward me I think.  Most times it is done in my presence. Other times I don't know the trigger. Not unusual to mop up 2-3 puddles.  One night it was 5 consecutive times.   I have been trying to intervene this and scoot her to her box.  Then praise her.  But she's so quick when she has in mind to pee on the floor.  It's a sort of impatience thing when she's wanting food and not instantly getting it. 

I shut them in this room overnight.  Every morning is lots of her droppings.  Rumballs are minimal.  Throughout the day she drop a few about there.  If I'm in there she'll dance about waiting for food, dropping more about.  It never use to be this much.

She trained herself originally so I never had to cage her.  For a refresher - do I shut them up in the rabbit area even though this is the place most affected? Neither have forgotten how to use the box, it's more a bad habit become the norm (my fault), and perhaps a territorial thing/dominance thing toward me.  Will shutting them up here re-establish the rules?  The space is 2x3 metres plus the adjoining laundry.  Would this be too large?  I could section of the laundry but putting a fence here will have her peeing along it.  Also, I'm going to be going out there to clean up the messes and my presence may trigger the peeing...I imagine it'll get worse before it gets better.

So, do I just toughen up and shut them up and see what happens? Anything else I should be doing?  Though I can definately see the behavioural issue, I am concerned about her health, however I don't think those things are leading to this loss of habits.

Oh boy. Leroy had a similar issue for a week or so this summer... his litter box was too small and he let me know! He'd sit there with his butt hanging over the edge and when he saw me watching him, he'd pee straight over the side! So I know how you feel when they pee intentionally for your benefit!

I'm sorry to hear about this issue. Poor you.... since the summer! Yikes. Well, one thing I would make sure that you DON'T do is to not feed her any time after she's intentionally peed/pooped. You mentioned that while waiting for food, Jersey dances around you, leaving droppings. You don't want to be rewarding her for bad behavior. I know it won't be much fun, but I'd recommend restricting them to their cage for a bit, until you get the litter box habits back under control.

Just throwing ideas out here.... If you think you're the trigger, is there any way someone else can take over main bunny duties for awhile to see if that helps? Sad, I know, but maybe you can have "bun - time" with them in their litter boxes... I'm thinking, build a pen that's only as big as the litter box and put it around the litter box in the normal location, put the buns in there and spend time giving treats and pets. That way, even if she's being a stinker and peeing cus you're around, she can't miss!

How old is Jersey?  Do you think it might be incontinence?

Posted By jerseygirl on 12/01/2009 05:16 AM

The peeing on the floor is VERY deliberate and dominance toward me I think.  Most times it is done in my presence. Other times I don't know the trigger. Not unusual to mop up 2-3 puddles.  One night it was 5 consecutive times.   I have been trying to intervene this and scoot her to her box.  Then praise her.  But she's so quick when she has in mind to pee on the floor.  It's a sort of impatience thing when she's wanting food and not instantly getting it. 

I shut them in this room overnight.  Every morning is lots of her droppings.  Rumballs are minimal.  Throughout the day she drop a few about there.  If I'm in there she'll dance about waiting for food, dropping more about.  It never use to be this much.

I agree with you about the peeing in your presence being for attentiion or a sign of her showing she's the boss. --My impression overall, though, is that it is a marking behavior since it involves lots of droppings left during the night when you are not present.

I would add more litterboxes, more than there are rabbits so at least 3, better 4. I would even put one of the boxes smack in the centre of that room. The idea is that with more toilet stations she may feel her scent is well enough distributed.

What iis the flooring like in that room?

Posted By Charlie&Layla on 12/02/2009 02:52 PM
  In fact, once when I locked him in a smaller area he sprayed me, even though he's been desexed!

Interesting.  Lint, neutered male, starts humping my others like mad when I cage them for cleaning their condo.

Thanks guys.
To answer qu's: Barbie, she is 2yrs old. This seems very controlled and deliberate peeing so not incontinence I don't think. Good point on food reward. I do try be aware of that. When I get their greens ready and she happens to be there, I give her a leaf if she hasn't soiled the floor. If she does, I remove her but I eventually serve their greens. I had thought enough times had past that she doesn't associate it with the behaviour but perhaps not. When their area is messed I always clean it before I feed them. It's become a routine though I don't know if it's a good one.

Petzy, they generally get fed pellets same time each day. If I'm late with it some mornings, this is when it's poop bombed. Also if they've been active at earlier hours for some reason. So you think marking their space or marking against Rumball? More litter boxes....well I have plenty spare. Currently they have a big box, fits both in there with room to spare. Its the only place there is hay. I've had 2 maxium before, however when I remove boxes, they (especially her) will use that spot after. Did this happen with yours after you pared back the amount of boxes?
Sometimes, there is the pee over the side issue but this isn't a biggy. It's the puddles in other spots I need to sort.
The floor is vinyl - I put it in upside down for the traction. It was same as kitchen and I used to think this was a prob as both would sometime soil the kitchen, but I've changed it and still problem exists. I removed the old floor as the pee was getting underneath and I needed to get it really clean to try remedy this litter issue.  The littering on this floor is same as the former.

Cassi, previously when I posted on this Jersey was a single bun and peeing on the kitchen floor-in my presence. I had a box there from when she was younger then she started littering in front of it. This habit did improve...but she'll still do it some. We've all been in the living room before and she's gotten pissed of at me for some reason (removing her from couch or out from under a chair for example), I've seen her hop to the kitchen and go pee in that corner. I've 'secretly'  followed her knowing that frame of mind! Lately, when I've been able to see the intent, I've herded her to the box and then praised her which is good but this only prevents some of the 'accidents'.

Maybe I should keep some notes about so I can identify a real pattern. I sort of have a vague idea but it's been a long time and my own guesses at the reasons have changed alot and gotten confused! I know that the before and during bonding this started. After the bond I accepted it an thought it would reduce. It didn't. I can say they are litter trained other wise they entire house would be used, it's the rabbit area that's out of controll. I think Rumball does a bit sometimes too though not like Jersey. They're not being very good advocates for trained house rabbits!! I have read that bad habits can take a good while to adjust so I guess I need a consistant way to work on this for a long period. The reduction of there space doesn't seem to make sense to me in this scenario BUT perhaps I should do this? Would they be less likely to soil the space if this were their only space?

You know, I've realized I'm just over thinking things (as usual) and procrastinating (as usual).  I think I've resolved just to limit the space and see what happens. Got nothing to lose really...  Part of me not doing this earlier is I think I'll miss their company - weird...I like having them about even though frequently annoyed by some behaviours.  When did I become so dependant on them?!  

haha. I've got time. Maybe they broke out to come see you instead. I slept on the sofa last night and couldn't be bothered shutting J&R out in rabbit area...so I got lots of visits in the early hours this morning.

Grown on me....i'm reminded of that line from Jerry Maguire (detest that movie!) "you had me at 'hello'" lol The buns, they had me at....?
I stalk them. They just come to me for food, I seek them out for pets. I sometimes lie on the floor peering into the cardboard cubby at them. On the outside looking in...

Posted By jerseygirl on 12/04/2009 05:43 PM

haha. I've got time. Maybe they broke out to come see you instead. I slept on the sofa last night and couldn't be bothered shutting J&R out in rabbit area...so I got lots of visits in the early hours this morning.

Grown on me....i'm reminded of that line from Jerry Maguire (detest that movie!) "you had me at 'hello'" lol The buns, they had me at....?
I stalk them. They just come to me for food, I seek them out for pets. I sometimes lie on the floor peering into the cardboard cubby at them. On the outside looking in...

Rabbits give such new perspective, don't they?

I will be nominated "BB's worst bunny slave" after you read this.

--well, Lint seemed to have had the thought, whilst at large, to see me... but he would have had to run a gauntlet first. You see, my basement is uncharted territiry for rabbits, hostile and full of danger. My negligence as their protector becomes evident here. My basement was supposed to be an interim home for them... it was unsafe.

I opened the door to the basement stairs on a Saturday morning. There was Lint. At the top of 22 stairs. Poops all around him. He made it all the way to the door. My heart sank into my stomach forming a knot. 1 bunny on the stairs meant 3 bunnies loose! So I prepared myself for I didn't know what... my basement has a number of large appliances which have cables obviously plugged in. It is also filled with heavy storage bins between which a bunny could disappear for a long time. My basement has mouse traps with peanut butter in them. It just isn't a bunny playground. My condo is escape-proof... but only as long as I clip all beaners shut on it.

So I went downstairs, Lint hippity-hopping down the poop trail. There was Mops sitting on the outside of their condo looking in! He saw me and hopped inside the condo as if to show me the neat escape route where I had left the beaner unclipped. Lint followed him flicking his heels at me as a warning: "Don't you pick me up now!"

But where was Deirdra?

Not a sound.

I was in my pyjamas looking for Deirdra and all I could find were clues of rabbit presence here and there; a 20kg bag of white flour, ripped open poured out onto the floor with bunny prints in it... tripped mouse traps, 4 in total, poos everywhere, even in high places... a large hole eaten into a new bag of rabbit pellets.... then the wall. Insulation had been dug out and peed in.

But no Deirdra.

Not a sound.

I started to think the worst. Cables.... electrocution.... I went and checked the fridge cable, dryer, washer, water conditioner, sump pump, etc. All intact. By the sump is a thing for the water to go through, a large tower thing, and there was a bunny tail behind it. Underneath a jungle of cables suspended above her,  there was Deirdra, flopped out.

I couldn't fit in the space she was in and so I waited. She volunteered to come out and I was happy for a moment until the worry set in that the trio may have eaten flour and insulation... I watched them all day but they were perky and in a good mood. Munching, pottying... everything.

Lint has been chewing the NIC squares hard since the adventures... wanting out!

Grrr! I hate this. It feels like a punishment. Today I penned of a 2x1metre area for them. Containing 2 litter boxes (the large one with hay) and a water bowl. They spend majority of day in it and have had sometime outside. But now it's midnight and I just want to let them out! I hate doing this. I thought as we were having a run of milder weather I could pen them up & they'd be comfortable. But it feels like the wrong approach. Like I've really taken away their habitat and put them in this contained space with just a few familiar things.

I think I'll give them back the room, add more boxes as a hint (hopefully) and keep on top of Jerseys attempts to pee on the floor where I can. I had been doing this and she definatley knows what I'm on about. Last night she really tested me so I was determined to set up the pen area today. Now it's midnight and I'm over it. I have no will power.

I let them back out that night and we all slept in the living room.  

I do have some sensible reasons for my delaying this though - truly!  It is Jersey that is the big culprit and she is drinking and peeing alot so I am attempting to look into this also.  It is starting to heat up here again too so 2 weeks (2 weeks? ahhhh!) in the bunny room is not doable.  It heats up too much there.

It would be one thing if they just didn't get it, but it seems clear that Jersey is doing this on purpose

I guess this is where my hesitations lie.  Is the back to basics litter training the thing for her?  Especially as she's never had this in the past - she just used a box out right.  Do rabbits inherently "get it" once being in limited space?  Would it establish boundaries?  Would it re-establish dominance - me being top bun?  You see my confusion?  Perhaps all these questions on my part of procrastinating.  As I said before, I have nothing really to lose by trying the back to basics method.  I just feel so mean.  I'm the first to give advice for others to do this but easier said than done eh?!

When a good time presents itself I may try it. I have simplified their space to contain just the basics. I will add one more box also.  Meantime, I have been trying to spend more time with Jersey, just giving positive attention.  Also, I've been prompting her to her box and praising her. 

Sorry for all my long posts.  I have been using the forum as a sounding board.

Thanks BB.  You are so good at making things clear and simple!

When I came in tonight I was tired, hungry and aching. So to find a big mess in the bunny room did not go down well with me. I was so cross and frustrated!  I'm "documenting" this so if I chicken out on the confinement method in the future, I only need check back in on how I felt when I got home tonight.  I insisted on cleaning it before feeding them their greens and of course Jersey, in her impatience for food peed one more time for good measure.

The vet mentioned on Friday that her constant begging for food (and possibly drinking) could be to do with her motility issue.  We think she may have hypermotility, that is everything passes thru her faster.  It kind makes sense then that when I'm about in the kitchen or bunny room, she'll come and expect food. As usually thats what I am doing for them. I do ignore it often, as I don't want her to think if she begs she'll automatically get food.  I do think much of the time the peeing on the floor is her impatience for the food / or sign she is upset with me.  Perhaps their are other mindsets though? Or even physical discomfort she has when anticipating food, the standing to beg putting pressure on her bladder?  Or excited peeing.... Those last to "what if's" are stretching things a bit.  I must remember the deliberate times when she's specfically gone from one room to another to pee in a problem spot.  Perhaps she feels a loss of power and this is her way of regaining it.

Posted By jerseygirl on 12/20/2009 04:34 AM

Thanks BB.  You are so good at making things clear and simple!

I insisted on cleaning it before feeding them their greens and of course Jersey, in her impatience for food peed one more time for good measure.(...)

 I do think much of the time the peeing on the floor is her impatience for the food / or sign she is upset with me.  Perhaps their are other mindsets though?  (...) Perhaps she feels a loss of power and this is her way of regaining it.

I I will be surprised if the confinement method fixes this problem; my feeling here would be Jersey is an attention-peer. I only knew those in the canine species, but I understand rabbits are so smart, too.

Have you tried giving her the 'cold shoulder' when she pees in your presence, like ignoring her and only cleaning it up when she can't see you do it?

Petzy - that is a really good term for it. About a week ago, I went to the bedroom and she came running into the hall way. I turned around to see her and she backed into a corner & peed. This was a spot she doesn't normally go too. I was so surprised! I do the cold shoulder bit though not as consistant with cleaning up while she's absent. I have done that too but most times I just get straight too it. My sister commented one night "she's got you well trained". So true. It's a bit like kids I guess, that do the thing Mummy often tells them not too because they think it's a game. I do this and Mummy does this...

Well for all my complaining about her I'm feeling some guilt now because she's not well today.

Ok - the buns are in lockdown. Wish me luck!

I've shut them in the rabbit area rather then pen off a really small space. I'll see how this goes first. There's 5 litter boxes in there. I think Jersey may understand that big hint!!