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Forum THE LOUNGE Putting on the Brakes: Info. Before baby bunnies

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    • RabbitPam
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        Hi, Everyone,

        We’ve been having some fun watching the pix of newborns growing up lately, as there have been 3 “Oops” litters posted here in the last several weeks.

        But I have a growing concern that I think the other Forum Leaders share about the impact of the cuteness of what’s been happening. Every spring you’ll see pet stores getting in numerous babies (sometimes NOT at the proper weaning age-around 9 weeks old) to sell at Easter. Adorable-yes-but taken home to unprepared families for little children, on impulse.

        Then ask a shelter what happens. You all know – 5 months old and it’s getting teenager hormones, behaving badly, chewing, not using the litter pan, aggressive, and LARGER , ie. NO LONGER CUTE. Never was cuddly much, but now runs from the family.

        So they’re dumped. At a shelter if they’re lucky. Often in a park. Or the woods. Which really means left outside in the elements to die from a predator or starvation or cold. These are domestic rabbits, not wild ones, and totally unable to fend in the outdoors. Many owners here spotted an obviously domestic rabbit and taken it in, saving their life. That’s the work of an angel, but so many never have that good fortune.

        “No intentional breeding” on BinkyBunny is BB’s way of advocating the proper care of house bunnies. There’s no way for you to stop a bunny from having a litter if she was pregnant when you got her, thus a “oops” litter happens. It’s an emergency, and we’re here to help. And if you already own two bunnies, and they were sexed wrong, or even if the crafty little critter got out of that locked cage once to visit the other, well, they can breed like rabbits, right?

        It takes LITERALLY SECONDS together for a bunny to get pregnant. Happens just that fast.

        OK, well, they’re cute. And you love rabbits already. What really is the problem anyway?

        • Are you really prepared to own 6 rabbits for the next 10 years?
        • Do you have space to separate each and every one of them in their own cage?
        • Do you plan on getting every single one of them spayed/neutered (figure min. $200 each) so you don’t have 12 bunnies next year?
        • Do you have the money to take each one to a vet as soon as it grinds its teeth, has runny poops, or lies there for no obvious reason?
        • Can you buy fresh vegetables for all those mouths? Pellets? Hay? dishes? litter?
        • Can you leave them when you have a vacation? Or a family emergency? Or a fabulous job opportunity interview out of state? Or school?
        • I’ll give them away. Do you know 6 people who can take a bunny in for 10 years and treat them right? Or are 5 of them going to a shelter? Is one or two going to be abandoned in the park from one of those “good homes” you found on Craigslist? Or snake food?

        Guys, I don’t mean to be harsh. I just am afraid that I am seeing the same emotional impact on us now as we expect to see in the Spring with the Easter bunnies. I know we love, love, love our bunnies. Let’s take care of them so we can enjoy our lives with them and share it with each other.

        • Get your bunny speutered. NOW. All of them.
        • Keep your unspeutered bunnies separated always. Wait a full month after the first one is done before letting them together.
        • Start a savings account for emergency vet care costs, so you don’t get caught short when you need it.
        • Establish yourself with a good vet. Ask about billing options. Ask about rates for multiple pets.
        • Get pet insurance if you think you’ll need it, especially if you own more than one rabbit.
        • Don’t breed – bond. Visit a shelter and take your bunny on dates. Let them meet a bunny who needs a home.
        • Adopt a new baby who’s only 5 months old and already spayed by a shelter. Less $ for you, safe, and helping two bunnies: the one you adopt and the space you make at the shelter for a new bunny.
        • Take lots of pix of the bunny you have now. They are cute, will always be cute as you love them and watch them grow.

        You are an advocate for life with bunnies. It’s truly wonderful. Let’s get together on this and make a difference in the lives of our furfriends. Sometimes more isn’t better. It’s just more.

        Thank you all for reading this Loooooooong post and hearing me out. – RabbitPam

         

         


      • jerseygirl
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          RabbitPam, I do echo some of your concerns. Yes we have had a run of Oops litters and there has been much fawning over the babies. Well they are irresistable. We get to experience newborns without recklessly (and knowingly) contributing to rabbit OVER population. But it’s also a little sad when I think of all the shelter rabbits and all the babies of non-oops litters being born that we don’t hear about here but see the impact of eventually. My main concern is that on lookers might get to thinking how cute it would be to have their own baby rabbits and breed their rabbits. (PLEASE DON”T!)  I do know that most of the frequently posting members here do not advocate this.

          I do believe that those here with the oops litters will see to the well-being of these rabbits to the best of their ability. Kudos to them.

          One thing I would add to the list above is “Educate yourself” For anyone thinking of getting a rabbit or rabbits OR you have got 1, 2 or 3 already but don’t know alot about them –  EDUCATE YOURSELF! Many people don’t know that rabbits can be sexually mature and breed by 3 months of age. That rabbit gestation period is 28-30 days (give or take). That a newly neutered Buck can still impregnate a Doe for a period of time.  That rabbit sexes are commonly mistaken. All these factors can result in adding to rabbit population problem in such a short amount of time. 


        • babybunsmum
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            excellent information… thanks

            i for one have been enjoying seeing the wee bun pics and living vicariously through the threads… babies are RIDICULOUSLY adoreable *sigh*… so a reality check is a great idea. hopefully random people who find the baby bun pic threads also find this thread, educate themselves about rabbit care, consider all of the responsibilities carefully and then head out to their local shelter for their house bun.


          • BunnyLiz
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              Thanks Pam. I was of course enjoying the baby bun pictures lately, but I was concerned about what passerbys would take from those threads too.


            • amanda-penny & lola
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                your right.
                P&L’s litter was an accident.

                I’m changing the name of the post to (accidental litter)
                Some new comers might not understand whats wrong or whats right and I don’t want anyone to get the wrong idea.
                I have learned from Penny & Lola having the babies. It’s very stressful to think about finding the perfect homes. I’m keeping all of them until I do.

                Great information.


              • LittlePuffyTail
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                  Well said, RabbitPam.

                  amanda-penny&lola- I think that’s a great idea to change the thread name for newcomers


                • RabbitPam
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                    I’m so glad you feel positive about this post. I was very concerned later that our members with the oops litters (and I, too, have enjoyed seeing those wonderful pictures.) would think I was being unkind or blaming them in any way. Quite the contrary – they are doing a great job in caring for this potentially overwhelming circumstance as best they know how, and asking for help when they need it. I know they are facing some difficult choices in the near future as they decide on homes for all the babies they are naturally growing attached to.

                    It is indeed a reality check. Babies are designed by nature to be irresistible – so an adult will not resist caring for them. My post is just a way to resist that urge to start new families without knowing what’s involved. I’m glad you guys took my point as intended.


                  • Furface
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                      I too have thought about this quite a bit, we all gush so much that some could get incorrect ideas.
                      I love love love all the cutie pictures.
                      I envy the experience of babies.
                      I do not envy the looking for good homes, worrying if you made the correct choice, & the parting with the wee ones.
                      I can’t even look at the humane society pages & petfinder, there are just so many, it’s heart wrenching.

                      Good post Rabbit Pam.


                    • Jenna, Chubs & Comet
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                        I agree, good post! I have also enjoyed all the baby pictures and I think the bunny parents with the oops litters are doing great caring for  everyone! Still, it’s that same little war inside my chest that happens every time I go to the pet store for hay and litter. Oh my goondess look at the adorable little babies! vs. Oh my gosh, how can they find genuinely good homes for all of them? I am not envious of the tasks that Amanda, and the other new bunny baby moms have on their hands in the near future! I think they’ll succeed of course but to have to find quality homes for the little ones and then have to part with them…goodness how difficult! And while I think most binkybunny members are aware of the oops situations, I too was concerned abotu new comers. So yay Rabbitpam for the post!


                      • MimzMum
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                          I actually came in here with the fear that something terrible had happened in Pam’s life and she was taking a leave of absence! 0_o Perhaps this post should be renamed too, to something like “Before You Adopt That Cute Baby Bunny…”
                          It is sad to think that people need any more provocation to recklessly bring home that rabbit that will eventually become homeless, or that anything we are doing here would contribute to that end, but I have to admit Pam is right and made these excellent points. I have surfed Craigslist and seen the posts even here in my state that are “I want to bring a bunny home for my 5 year old…” I just want to thump these people on the head and ask them if they have any idea what they are doing?
                          I hope that wherever I go I extol the virtues of being the right kind of bunny mom on people, but especially with the way the internet is, things get misconstrued too easily. I agree that our ‘oops’ members are doing a champion job of taking care of their litters and finding them proper homes. But my mind also goes to all the bunnies in the world that are being advertised because someone made an impulse purchase or adoption and then realized too late this was not the thing for them. Wildly inappropriate. It breaks my heart.
                          Almost all my animals that I have now are someone’s ‘discards’. I have happily brought them home to care for them so that they feel like each one is number one. Not everyone can give this kind of time and I see that I am most fortunate indeed to be able to provide this environment. It is a huge decision to share your life with another human being, not to mention an animal companion. If these two ideals could be equated on the same level, perhaps the lives of our furry, feathered or finned friends would more often be happier ones.
                          Thank you, Pam, for bringing this to our attention. It needed to be said.


                        • BinkyBunny
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                            Rabbitpam – what a great post. I know we sort of discussed our concerns between the leaders, but I really appreciate you taking the initiative to post this. I think it is a very important and respectful reminder. Thank you!!


                          • RabbitPam
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                              Oh, MM,
                              You worry about me too much. *toes ground in Aw Shucks way*. Thanks. To make you feel better, and make this post easier to reference and find, I added to the title.

                              You’re our Alaskan Angel. Fiver told me.


                            • Beka27
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                                Excellent post Pam!

                                I always go back to Lisa in Australia. She was here long before many of our current, regular members, so here is a brief recap (to the best of my recollection… I can’t seem to find the threads). She adopted an adult, unspayed, female rabbit. Within a couple weeks she took her to the vet for a check-up. Vet said she was not pregnant. Less than a week later she gave birth to 6 babies. Lesson 1: Vets, even savvy ones, CANNOT always tell a bun is pregnant.

                                Lesson 2: Before adopting or acquiring a new rabbit, take into consideration if you are able to spay or neuter immediately. Just because someone is giving up an “unneutered male”, this doesn’t mean that he is not actually an unspayed (and PREGNANT) female. People are wrong (or lie) all the time. If you are adopting a bun and you do not know the history, you can usually get an emergency spay. The procedure will spay the bun, and if she is pregnant, it will terminate the pregnancy. I know it’s not a nice thing to think about, but it is necessary and rescues/shelters do this ALL THE TIME.

                                Lisa was able to deal with the unexpected litter wonderfully. She spay/neutered the mom and all the babies HERSELF. She housed and cared for them for (I believe?) about 2 years and was only recently considering finding them new, forever homes. It is a lot of work/time/expense to take in ONE bun and end up raising SEVEN! Lesson 3: I know it’s not possible for everyone to do this, but please consider spay/neutering the babies BEFORE they go to a new home. This is the only way you know FOR A FACT that they will not end up contributing to the bunny population. If you can’t do this, make sure to interview and educate any prospective homes about the importance of fixing their bunny. And FOLLOW-UP with them to make sure this has been done at the appropriate time!

                                Babies are cute. I enjoy seeing the pics of the little babies, but I also recognize the immense amount of work that Amanda and Lisa and others have had to go thru to make sure they are all cared for and safe. The other members SEE the cuteness and HEAR the sweet stories, but they are not the ones DEALING with feeding, housing, cleaning, tons of poop/pee, and eventually hormones and finding great homes.

                                Lesson 4: Spay and neuter. BEFORE you get a second bunny. If you have two bunnies, spay or neuter them BEFORE you attempt to bond and DEFINITELY before you seek out a third. Even if you’ve been “guaranteed” they are both boys or both girls, get them fixed before you allow them to be together.

                                Lesson 5: Keep in mind that cages are not escape-proof. And rabbits can “do the deed” between the bars of a cage. If you have two unaltered bunnies, put an xpen AROUND the cage during playtime so there is at least 3 inches between each bun. This is also extra insurance against a bunny breaking loose and you not catching it in time.

                                Here are the calculations (from Dana Krempels) about the number of rabbits one pair can create: http://www.bio.miami.edu/hare/scary.html
                                It is eye-opening. The fact is that YOU can do everything right when it comes to an accidental litter, but once those babies are out of your care, there is no telling who they will go to or what their lives will be like. It’s very scary.


                              • SophieBun
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                                  Hi RabbitPam, thanks for the post. I just edited the title of my thread and wrote something at the beginning of it so people who are just visiting the forum know the story behind the babies. I can’t possibly pay for spaying and neutering all the babies, but I’m gonna make sure the families who adopt them know everything there is to know about bunnies and that they HAVE to speuter them.


                                • Kafrn
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                                    Hi Rabbit Pam, thanks for the post!

                                    I just wanted to say thanks to everyone for all the info you have helped us with when our accidental litter came along. It was (and still is ) a HUGE help to us! Our Male bunny was desexed as soon as we got him, but there is no excuse really, the accidental litter came along because our bunnies must have had “a few seconds” together”, and we didn’t realise. Carl and I understand that this litter happened under our roof, and therefore is our responsibility. We can not bear to think of these babies ending up in shelters because of what happened under our roof, because of our mistake. Carl and I have decided to keep the baby rabbits for this reason.

                                    We have a cousin in law who is an impulse buyer of animals. Anything her 3 year old wants, he gets. They have had rabbits before (briefly), and asked if they could have one of our babies, we said no.

                                    The owners of Mr Bunny who were going to have him put down asked if they could have one. We said no. Because we know what kind of a situation that baby would be going into. And we dont want that to happen because of a mistake that we made.

                                    If the accidental litter had come at any other time, we would have had to have put them up for adoption. (though not to the above people!!!)
                                    It just happened that they came at a lucky time when we were able to change our building plans, and instead of adding a few extra rooms to our house, we added a large rabbit entertainment area instead. it was just pot luck that it was the right time. I would not look forward to putting them up for adoption at all, it must be so so hard.

                                    I just want to assure everyone that we are 100% committed to looking after this accidental litter. We do have enough room for the rabbits, Carl has completely rebuilt our entertainment area (which is inside) with enough runs to house 2 in each pen. These pens are built up to the wall that leads out to the grass. Each bunny has a door to their pen which can be opened for outdoor playtime, as well as indoor. We go to the markets every sunday morning to get all the fresh veggies that they need for the week, and refill our pellets bin too. we have put over $1000 aside for the desexing of the babies, (happening in 15 weeks) and have also started a savings fund especially for the rabbits incase of any emergency situation (vet bills etc.) We now have a lot of rabbits, yes. But they are our responsibility, and we just love them to pieces.

                                    Amanda and Giuly, I think your accidental litters are just beautiful by the way. I log in every morning for hours just to coo over your little babies. (I love olivers ears!!!)

                                    I see what you mean by my thread name could lead newcomers to getting ideas about breeding their bunnies. I will change it straight away. I’m sorry if anyone got the wrong idea about us keeping all the babies. But we have covered every dot point on Rabbit Pams list to ensure that we can give them a happy life . I promise they are all very happy (as you can see in the pics) and they are a part of our family now

                                    Thanks for reading my long piece guys.

                                     


                                  • Kokaneeandkahlua
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                                      Well put and well said all around!!! We’ll recirculate the accident baby pics-no more needed!


                                    • Kafrn
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                                        Kookanee, Rabbit Pam: Does that mean no more pic updates?

                                         


                                      • Furface
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                                          But we love the pics!


                                        • Monkeybun
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                                            Hopefully she means no more accidental litters, we have enough. But pics of existing ones are fine. *crosses fingers*


                                          • Beka27
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                                              One of the issues is that by “oohing and aahing” over the baby pics, it can almost be misconstrued (to an outsider) to mean that we *endorse* the breeding of rabbits. The people who have existing litters can continue to post their picture updates in their respective threads (I think all of these were moved to the Lounge). But Binkybunny reserves the right to change this in the future. We have had issues with members in the past having multiple “accidental litters” and they posted photos of the first litter, but were not permitted to post about the subsequent litters.

                                              Giuly, I recognize that not everyone can speuter all babies. I was sharing Lisa’s story as an example of one accidental litter that ended up working out well. If you can speuter any of the babies, that would be great. I know it’s difficult when there are large litters, but even if you could have a couple of them done, that would be something. You can also ask an adoption fee to cover some of your expense.

                                              Kafrn, I’m very proud of you for stepping up like that. Are you familiar with Lisa’s babies? If I can find the thread I will post it, or send you the link in a message. It is a lot of work. Recently she was considering placing them for adoption b/c with family and work obligations, it had become too overwhelming. If your family is willing to help you, maybe everyone can be in charge of a certain aspect of care, that will go a long way towards making this work.


                                            • babybunsmum
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                                                i remember lisa very well! i thought of her when reading this thread. she started posting not long after i found this forum and i felt so badly for her situation. i think her pregnant rabbit may have been thought a male at first too. could be wrong.

                                                one extra thing to note from her experience (lisa if you’re reading this please correct me if i’ve gotten my facts mixed… it’s been a while)… she had the buns separated with males together and the females together, but eventually not all the buns got along and she had to re-arrange her set up once or twice to accomodate giving them their own areas. i believe even after the speuterings. bonding can be a real challenge even between siblings that once got along well! i was really surprised about that.


                                              • RabbitPam
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                                                  Guily and Kafrn,
                                                  Thank you both for your very thoughtful responses to this thread. As we’ve said, you both are doing a good job of dealing with your oops litters as best you can, and you will be great bunny slaves for years to come.

                                                  When it comes to pix updates, I defer to whatever BB says she wants to do here. I know that we moved the pix threads to the Lounge for that reason, and I remember the situation Beka is talking about. I think it’s regarding any new threads, rather than progress reports. But I will leave it to BB to weigh in if she wants a change in those threads.

                                                  They are growing very fast!


                                                • Kafrn
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                                                    Thanks Rabbit Pam, they certainly are growing fast! I love being a bunny slave No more accidental litters though, I promise. We are completely on top of it now.

                                                    I would love to read lisas threads… Where can I find them?


                                                  • MimzMum
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                                                      On a related subject, I don’t think I’ve shared this with the group here yet:
                                                      Twelve years ago, my male Mackenzie River Husky who is still with us at 14, and my rott/lab cross female, now deceased, accidentally got together and created a litter of 9 puppies. We’d had him scheduled for neuter and he’d broken off his lead. She hadn’t been spayed because at the time it was cost prohibitive. We were sure we’d gotten to them in time. We had plans to spay her as soon as we could. We were too late, despite all best intentions. To spay a pregnant female here would’ve cost thousands of dollars we didn’t have. And I was afraid of losing my dog to complications.

                                                      It wound up being a hard birth for her, but she recovered well, they were wonderful, healthy puppies and she was as devoted a mum as she could manage. I wound up having to hand raise most of the pups because she simply couldn’t handle it. We weaned them for her and began looking for prospective homes. All but two were adopted. The only one I know for sure is left alive is my son’s dog, and as mentioned before, his father.

                                                      There were 6 females, I believe, and three males. Imagine the prospective cost there of spaying and neutering! (All large breed dogs, which are highly expensive.) I can remember having to find homes for the ones we simply couldn’t keep, much as I wanted them all to stay, knowing how big they’d be and having to raise two children at the time with no substantial income. And with each one I went through a long discussion of not breeding them. I don’t think anyone disagreed. (Probably because of the father’s heredity, he is after all, part wolf.) One of the pups that I remember the best was a beautiful male, with his father’s fur and his mama’s coloring (a dark brown/black) and the temperament of a saint, that I regrettably agreed to allow a local to take from us. I begged my hubby to let me keep him, but it was not to be. Within a year or so he was dead, one of her neighbors had poisoned him with antifreeze not long after he had been trampled and had his ribs and back legs broken by one of the sheep she kept. It has never left me to think of how he last looked at me…he sat on my feet and turned his precious brown eyes to my face with a pleading look not to give him away. I had the worst premonition at that time. Turns out my fears were right.
                                                      Two other of the pups were adopted by locals, one was left to starve at an abandoned cabin and eventually put down because she could not trust people, the other was, I believe, hit by a car on our reckless road in and out of here.
                                                      Wow, this is a hard memory. Sorry if I sound bitter.

                                                      I felt I went through a LABORIOUS process of screening the prospective owners. Having fed the puppies from baby bottles myself, laughed watching them exercise with me in the back yard…all those feet going at once to keep up with me, watching them snooze on the porch after a good meal and too much sunny day, it was like giving up my own children. But I felt they would suffer staying here with us. Had I known what would befall them, I would’ve sold my blood to keep them where they would be safe. Sadly, I think some folks here tend to loook upon dogs as possessions rather than living creatures…people would say it is the mushing society that fosters this, and yet I disagree because I know mushers who take exceptional care of their dogs. Anyone can have the flaw in human society that breeds neglect. And let’s face it, I neglected having my dogs altered in time to prevent the accidental litter….

                                                      We did keep the one boy and girl, (we could manage that much), the female ironically also poisoned by a coarse neighbor. Knowing that GDV is hereditary and both my males have gone through it, I can only surmise the fates of the remaining dogs, provided they survived their respective owners.

                                                      All my current animal companions are speutered. No more accidents here. *nods*

                                                      The moral of the story, sordid as it is, is this: I will never get any of these lost puppies’ lives off my conscience. Never. And I will NEVER allow another animal to breed recklessly in my presence…even if it means an emergency spay. I hate the thought of it…but it really is the only sane and humane thing in this world to do, with all the poor baby animals in shelters and abandoned today that do not having the loving care of those kinds of people who frequent this forum and stay here, and show their obvious regard for all things living.

                                                      *sigh* Thanks for reading my rant, I’ve taken a long time proofreading it and doing my best to be helpful in it. It still lacks organization, but it’s an emotional topic. I don’t point it at anyone, it’s simply for information’s and experience-sharing’s sake. I guess it’s been bubbling up for a few years and this seemed the place to do it. I hope it will give anyone pause who aimlessly wanders in here and reads this. BE SURE you can take proper care…this is a life we’re talking about, or lives, even if they are ‘only animals.’

                                                      (gets off soapbox)

                                                      Pam, btw, ((((((((((((HUGS))))))))))))))))))))…b’awww, you made me blush. Thank you! I am sure at those moments when I am not forthcoming with treats or late with the clean litterbox, my bunnies may think I am something other than an angel, but they are precious in my sight, despite their opinions! ^_^


                                                    • jerseygirl
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                                                        I would love to read lisas threads… Where can I find them?

                                                        Here’s a few of Lisa’s threads. https://binkybunny.com/FORUM/tab…fault.aspx

                                                        https://www.binkybunny.com/FORUM/tabid/54/a…fault.aspx   There’s also video of babies very newly born in Gallery.


                                                      • RabbitPam
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                                                          Gosh, MM, you really must forgive yourself about the puppies. You know you screened the owners as best as anyone could have. I’m flabberghasted at the number of neighbors who feel free to poison another person’s animal! I imagine that husky owners are better than many, but anyone can seem OK at first and turn out to be awful a few years later. You can’t control that, and you have to let yourself off that hook. They are playing over the bridge by now, probably visiting Dad and bro in your yard even as we speak.


                                                        • BinkyBunny
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                                                            Posted By RabbitPam on 09/28/2009 04:21 PM
                                                            When it comes to pix updates, I defer to whatever BB says she wants to do here. I know that we moved the pix threads to the Lounge for that reason, and I remember the situation Beka is talking about. I think it’s regarding any new threads, rather than progress reports. But I will leave it to BB to weigh in if she wants a change in those threads.

                                                             

                                                            As far as questions about  how to care for a pregnant bunny, and/or how to care fo the babies, it should still be posted in the corresponding section. But if you are wanting to just post cute photo updates then the lounge would be best suited for that..   I don’t want anyone to feel bad or feel like they should hide their head in shame.  It’s only because of several accidents happening at once that we are now implementing some guidelines and posting some concerns.  We are learning as we go here, and I don’t expect anyone to have thought about this beforehand and so no one with accidental litters should feel bad.  You are now qualitfied to help educate and warn others!

                                                            So if you are just offering updates on the babies and don’t really have any care and/or behavior questions, then post in the Lounge.

                                                            Leaders are allowed to move any recent ”updates” that are in other sections to the Lounge, so be sure to look in the Lounge if you can’t find your update.

                                                            (Note: We do have a rule about  second “accidental” litters from the same person though – those are not allowed).


                                                          • lwayne
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                                                              Would it help to say to the prospective owners that “If you feel you can’t manage to take care of this bun, I would be happy to take it back in, at any time (months to years from now).”? Saying this to the newbie owners might make them feel a bit relieved if they have trouble taking care of a new bun and it might take some stress off of you trying to find ‘the perfect home’.

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                                                          Forum THE LOUNGE Putting on the Brakes: Info. Before baby bunnies