I will definitely post  video and more photos later, but for now I will give you a rundown of how things are going.

Jack is a monster mounter!!  Vivian was dealing with it okay for the first  day and half - she'd run and thump and then he'd respect that for the time being. She wanted so badly to just to cuddle - she's slowly approach to snuggle, and he'd groom her and she'd melt and she'd groom him and he'd melt, but then he'd ruin it all with his persistent honk and mount routine within minutes of snuggling. 

Day 1:  Just lounged around.  Jack slowly persued.  Vivian ran. Then they'd lounge near each other.  They could hang out for a few hours lounging, some slow chasing - intensive goofy staring by Jack who would honk and stare like he was saying "ya wanna?  Ya wanna?" (I have it on video - goofy guy!)  She'd just give one ounce of interest to sniff him, and he'd take that as his cue to try and mount her and she'd run off.

Day 2: she had told him she had had enough of this mount routine and gave him a nip.  Then he said "Look Lady, you're not the boss of me!" and she said "AND you're not the boss of me either!" and they started to do the aggression circle(I stopped immediately).    I tried later that evening, but she wanted nothing to do with him at that point and said to him.."I never want to see your cute fuzzy face again! I thought you were so handsome, but you had to go and  ruin everything with you dumb 'ol mounting".  Later in their pens (near  each other but safely separated) he chewed his xpen bars to get near her and she growled and boxed at him  and said,  "I hate you, leave me alone!" and then ran away to hide in her box.

Day 3: I gave them the day off to settle their nerves.  Jack settled down after being near her pen all day.(he's in his own pen separated by an inch) I also decided from now on to bond them when he was the most tired (afternoons) so that he wouldn't have the energy to do much but snuggle to try to get on her good side. I also gave Vivian a stunt double of Jack.(that smelled like him too)  She beat the hell out of it and I thought," Uh, Oh, this doesn't look good," but then an hour later after she was all done, she snuggled with him,and she also was no longer mad at Jack through the pen after that.

Day 4:  Afternoon car ride.  While in the carrier Vivian at first gave Jack a nip on his bum to let him know that she was still a little bit mad But then once on the car ride they snuggled. Vivian groomed him and vice versa when we would come to a prolonged stop.   Got back to the house, and did a 20 minute bonding session on the bathroom floor where they groomed each other.  Left it on a good note.  Jack seemed to redeem himself in Vivian's eyes.  Jack was happier after, and later didn't try to break open his xpen AS MUCH. 

Day 5 (today): Afternoon car ride then they did really well in the bathroom.  Jack was being a gentleman (with a little help from me to make him stop when I saw signs he wanted to mount) Vivian never knew he was going to try to mount her because she was either snoozing near him or not facing him munching down on parsley. He groomed her alot, and she groomed him but at times both were more in the "You groom me, no  you groom me"  mode.  One of them always gave in.  Jack gave in more this time.   Then she had to pee (not a marking pee, just a large."gotta go" pee, but regardless, after she did, all he wanted to do was mount.  But before he could even get started I stopped it.  But they did well for an hour. NOTE though: If wasn't closely supervising I have no doubt they would have fought due to their huge disagreement about the mounting. (it's not even a LITTLE okay with Vivian anymore)

At this point, she wants nothing to do with mounting, and if he even honks at her, her ears go down and she'll get that "So help me Bunny in the Sky!" look.   But if he doesn't mount her and just snuggles with her she grooms him so much.  She's actually VERY affectionate.  Though she can get bossy about her litterbox (so no litterboxes during bonding) Lots of paper towels though for cleanups. (I will end up using tarp for carpeted areas when we move from the bathroom)

I called Marcy to ask what to do because Jack has always been a mounter, and he may always have the tendency and Vivian ONLY gets aggressive when he mounts.  So that could be a problem!  With Rucy she would give in at times, so I think he learned that if he was just persistent enough, he'd get bunny booty.  

So hopefully he will learn soon that he is going to have to put the lover boy side aside. Marcy's advice was to clicker train or find some way to redirect. 

Tonight I put a stunt double of Vivian in his pen.  BIG mistake. All he wanted to do was hump that thing and then get at Vivian to hump thereal gal!  Just chewed on the cage like a mad man.  So I took the Vivian stunt double away, and he settled down.  Geesh!

So, we'll just take it one day at a time.   Just send out "settle down" vibes to Jack's mounting urges! We'll need it if this is going to succeed.

I have some great video and photos that I will put together soon to show all of this.

For now here are photos of their  sweet moments and my HOPE that  Jack will find this better than any "mount" as Vivian really does groom him more than Rucy ever did (though she would, just not for as long as Vivian does)

Wow - I love your description of Day 3 LOL.

Glad you called Marcy because I was going to suggest asking someone else about how to curb mounting. I wonder if the place Marcus took Maryann and Dono that got them bonded in a week has experienced this situation and found a solution? (Don't tell me, it's Marcy's place?)

He mounts a lot for a neutered bunny. I wonder if h'es being dominent since she's so much his equal? It does sound like a plea for Bunny Booty. Would he mount a toy that smelled like someone or something else and then relax around Vivian? So he associated the toy with the mounting and Vivian with companionship? (Like mounts toy, gets raisin. Mounts Vivian, gets scolded, stops, gets raisin.)

Eagerly awaiting videos. (Rated PG)

yep, that was Marcy's place where Marcus got his two bonded.  I am definitely now going to do clicker training or behavior training, and rabbitpam, the advice about rewarding for the good behavior is great - that will be part of the retraining for sure.

Jack has always been a mounter. He will mount as much as a bunny will ever let him - especially around this time of the year. The vet said it was because he was neutered later in on life after he had already fathered kits (before he went to a rescue). She said this behavior can become instinctually set and doesn't depend on hormones. There are health issues that will also make a bunny mount, but at this time the vet doesn't think that is it.

He would mount Rucy too and she wasn't hardly dominant with him at all. She would always allow him to eat first, use the box alone IF he wanted, but he would mount her for dominance when she didn't groom him as much as he wanted. He didn't need much though from her.

As far as the toy goes he cuddled with it when it didn't smell like Vivian, and he won't mount it unless it smells like Vivian which actually made it worse because then he expected that of Vivian. So no Vivian stunt double for him. He will calm down though if he has a "Non-Vivian" stunt double. He'll relax and snuggle by it.

He's definitely a dominant bunny, and he will mount for dominance, but the annoying part is he will also mount as a part of his "urge". They are totally separate. The "urge" one he honks and tries to first swoon her (usually, with a stare, ears forward completely), maybe a little groom first, and the other one, he will have a more aggressive tone, more of a lunge forward, sometimes a growl, but not always. They look very similar but there are the differences that help me distinguish.

His other dates he had liked him until he mounted too, but the difference was that Odessa wanted him dead within seconds of him trying, and Manteca let him mount her two times before she started spraying him and getting more and more aggressive within the first five minutes. Vivian would run and thump, and Jack would respect that at the time and let her be for the moment. She was the most patient bunny with his antics,

I sure hope I can break him of this because it will be hard to find any bunny, even the most passive bunny that would put up with that for years. I did give Rucy an escape box, where she could fit, and Jack couldn't, but Vivian is bigger and can hold her own and I can't make an "escape" box for her that he couldn't fit into also. Plus, she is now at the point she won't tolerate it for a second. Maybe if she sees his kind side she'll be more like Rucy and allow him to mount her every once in awhile. Rucy would be like - okay, just hurry up and get it over with! But she wasn't thrilled with that part either. He would usually just give up chasing her or she'd give in.

Also if Vivian doesn't tire of giving him the stink-eye and thump that will work to to deter him sometimes(it worked for Rucy sometimes too). But so far she's letting him know, I think you're great - I'll eat with you, I'll groom you, I'll snuggle with you, but you honk at me just once, and you're toast.

^ FYI: for anyone interested in the L shape pen for their own rabbit bonding, you can find it in the FAQ's under Bonding.

BB, this is great to have such in depth descriptions as you progress. Entertaining too! It's helping answer some of the Qu's I have while undertaking bunny bonding also. I still have some though! What is the medical is you referred to re mounting? Also, can females spray to? I didn't know that...

Despite the mounting issue, Vivian & Jack seem a well matched pair. I think she'll be really good for him if they can get past this impasse. Looking forward to viewing the videos.

TARM - It's a low buzz - many times it's barely audible, but with Jack, it's still quiet, yert more obvious. It's like quietly saying hummm, hummm, hummm, with your mouth closed.

Thanks everyone for your support.  This is really long I know, so I don't expect everyone to read through it  unless you want to know the details, but otherwise,  if you just read the first sentence of Day 6, and you're set!

Day 6:  Good Bonding session today (3 hours) with a few little pits, but all and all it was good. 

I decided since it was such a nice day, I would try a bonding session in the back yard.  I used the extra tall xpens and we have a huge redwood tree that provides great shading.  So I put a tarp down over the grass because it was a little damp), then a blanket  - put some water, hay and greens in and we all three sat in the pen. 

Mutual Grooming went well:  They really groomed eachother quite a bit today despite their tiffs. Vivian gave Jack  the best bunny groom he's ever had - his face, his ears, his shoulders.  She gave him the full works a few times.  He was in heaven  They snuggled and groomed more than they argued.  And though he really forces his face under hers to make a strong grooming request, he's also okay with her doing a more timid request with him. He'll either wait to be groomed before he grooms her, or just groom her first.  They both do this, but since they both give about equal starters and equal returns, then the actual grooming requests haven't been a problem for either of them.

Worked on retraining Jack's mounting issues: We were out there for three hours.  Jack tried to mount somewhere between 8 and 10 times.  But here is the good part...which I am very surprised about.  Between Vivian giving him the whip-necked stink-eye, and me saying "Jaaaack" in that "your going to get in trouble" voice, he would begin to stop. Other times I had to physically force him to not go forward with his intention, but the moment he would stop and sort of relax, I would praise him and give him tons of love. this really seemed to help him just begin to understand.  This didn't prevent him trying to mount her a few more times, but a few times I caught him stopping on his own.  So though I don't think this little amount has made it all better, i do believe that it lessened amount of mount attempts today.  And I am impressed that even just a little correction had even any affect at all with how long he's been doing this.   

There were three similar mounting incidents where I had to stop them from getting into a tiff about it.  It would last one half circle  - I'm quick!  As I would separate them they would both do the grunt at each other thing - with "bluffing" open mouth air chomps. (shadow boxing for bunnies!)  I know the bluff - Jack has always done that goofy thing.  All  talk!  (so far....knock on wood)

Discovered two possible triggers  for Jack's "dominance" mounting: (different than urge mounting)  When she pees and  when she grooms herself. ( I know, it's gettin weird around here)   

1. You Peed, now I pee! - When she pees, he wants to go pee near her pee, and he wants her to submit by moving out of the way so he can do that,and I think he is mounting her to tell her, "Okay, that's great, you've established a pee place, but i am the male, and  I am the last one to pee around here so move it so I can pee in the same place you peed". And if his approach to her doesn't make her move, then he'll mount.

2. You need something to groom? Well here I am baby!  

He'll try to mount her when she grooms herself. (This is that "ya wanna do it?" look. where will stay in that position for 10 seconds or so sometimes before he makes his mount move)   Today though, he got better results when he pushed his face under hers (face forward only, not the bum) She seemed to respect that dominant move much better and she groomed him. They actually groomed each other alot today.   Each taking turns for several minutes at at time.  They groomed more than they bickered.   I am so mad though because I did not get video and photos of that part because my camera ran out of batteries!  

I also discovered an annoying habit that Vivian has as well. 

If Jack's behind or side is to her, she will sometimes nip him. At first I thought she was doing an obnoxious diva dominance move,  (well, she sort of was!) but he'd whip around to face her and give her the "You better watch it MISSY!", and she'd then sort of cower back away, but then put her head down, like she was saying  "oh..oh, um...I just meant to say...groom me...please?"  Sometimes he would give her little "token" groom but most of the time he would just would stare her down and she'd just say.."eh..okay...forget about it".   So I THINK, not sure, that she is nipping him to turn around and groom her. 

She will also nip him if she wants to get passed him, (Jack used to do this gently do this to Rucy, but Vivian isn't quite as gentle about it with Jack) but both of these approaches cause him to turn around to get ready for a fight and in this case, Vivian doesn't return aggression and so it seems as if she is beginning to learn not to nip in those two cases.  

Best if she just squishes by him to get him out of the way and when she wants attention to just seek him out and push her nose under his. 

We'll see how this progresses though.  This can be a tricky issue too.

Last discovery:  Jack gets anxious and grumpy when he can't use a litterbox.  During bonding, I am no longer am using litterboxes until they bond more, because Vivian gets bossy about her box.  I understand, the ONLY thing that is familiar to her here is a litterbox and she will actually find comfort in the box.  She' hang out in there during bonding sessions which causes problems for both of them.  So no litterbox, however, Jack knows he normally is supposed to use the box.  And now he i can tell when he has to go.  He starts digging, and just gets grumpy.  I think he thinks he's going to get into trouble if he pees outside of the box or something...I don't know.  Anyway, when he finally just decides to take a chance and pee in the corner of the xpen, he then relaxes.  But before that, he is digging, grunting and then Vivian gets all worked up, and this caused tension while he was doing it.  So I think I will have a litterbox ready to put in just when he starts acting this way to make him less anxious.

Well, they are very tired now.  Jack hasn't even made much of an attempt to chew on the bars, and they don't even seem to have enough energy to do the poop wars right now.  Here's a photo of them below from just about an hour ago.  Notice Vivian snuggling with our toy bunny named BeeBee, the Jack look and smell alike stunt double. 

 Well, that was today, and I know well enough to know that tomorrow could be a whole different experience, good or bad.  So, we'll see what happens.  Wish us luck!

Jack has such an amazingly loud growl, and huge lunge and stomp that he can scare Vivian. He only does this when he gets nipped. (The mounting causes the spiral right away without growling or anything) But with the nip, he whips around and gives her his best angry growl, lunge etc. She has a growl too, but Jacks is sooo much more intimidating so at least it scares her enough to cower at that moment, and he does not follow through with aggression if she cowers. She nipped a few times today, but I also caught her about to do it, and then she stopped herself as if to think twice. Another time, she leaned forward as if she was going to nip, and then she every so gently started grooming his back, I was just waiting for a nip, but she groomed again, but he whipped around but realized nothing happened and so he didn't get aggressive.

Cassi&Charlie - I can't believe I have another bunny either. I so hope this all works out. I just want Jack (and Vivian) to be happy. It was so hard on Jack when Rucy died. And since he's getting older and bunnies don't live very very long, I figured I should start looking at least for him. It was really only a month that had passed since I lost Rucy - so I still miss Rucy terribly! I still mourn her daily, but I also have a ton of love to give Vivian. 

I have tons of great grooming photos now! I also have some photos of great body language cues and triggers for Jack, etc. I will post the updates either tomorrow or over the weekend. Knowing what sets them off helps me know when to intervene to keep them calm as a preventative measure and hopefully they will then be able to stay calm on their own when the triggers happen. Time will tell. I can say five hours today, and things were good. (hour 4 was tense), but after that they even slept with each other. Vivian lightly snores and Jack was dreaming - so they were obviously relaxed while laying right next to each other.

I'll post about all of this later. Too tired right now...zzz


 

Well, in bonding there are good days and bad days. Today was a not so good day. They got along better in some ways - less mounting, less nipping, more relaxed at first, but as much as they are curbing some of their annoying behaviors, they still both have such dominant personalities, I am beginning to wonder if this really will work. The last couple of days was lots of grooming, but still some very tense moments that I know if I didn't intervene would have ended up serious. And tonight it was going well, but I think Vivian just gets annoyed with Jack - even when he's just sittin' around being calm. They both have such strong personalities that I am thinking Jack will need a more passive bunny.  Rucy wasn't passive with humans, but she was passive with Jack so I think that's why that worked.   Jack is so mad at Vivian right now, he just wants to kill her through the pen, and Vivian is just resting trying to recover from all the stress of the most recent bonding session.  Poor Bunnies!

Anyway, I will be recruiting the help of Marcy, the bonding guru. I may need to use her bonding services or she may suggest a more passive bunny. I have no idea what the next step will be. I'll keep you updated! Wish us luck!

Thanks Jersey! I really appreciate that. It does help to remember "just a bad day". I sure hope it works out too. I think I am worried only because I've done five bondings, and only one that didn't work, the other pair-ups bonded rather quickly - progressed well within the first week and continued to bond progress well the weeks after, but these two remind me of Bailey and Rucy - where they would groom each other and yet fight, (and that took 8 months total  before I gave up on Rucy and Bailey) so I think I could be a bit more worried. I can handle the slow progression, it's the "I love you, cuddle with you....I hate you and want you dead"  that makes me indentify this situation with the Rucy and Bailey's experience.

And maybe I'm also more worried because I just feel for Jack because though Rucy was a diva with humans, she wasn't nippy with him. So with her loss, and wanting him to have a friend, I actually might feel sorry for him too. So I may be just too emotional about it, and so maybe it would be better to have Marcy take over. I really do trust her though because she knows so much more than I do about more challenging bonding - so I will do whatever she says.

I also think I am also comparing this "bunny dating" to my last bunny dating experience. Both Bunny dating experience before - they progressed so well - A tiff or two, chasing etc, but no real all out gloves down fighting. So I was hoping that this would happen as well this time. My expectations may be too high. I DO know that if I didn't bunny date, and I picked MY first choice, Odessa, it would have been ten times worse, so I know the benefits still of bunny dating. But they had a fight tonight (no damage really done just fur flying), but this set them back I think. I REALLY want Vivian to work, so hopefully Marcy can help put things in the right direction.

Thank you so much for the bonding vibes! I think I will need them more than the bunnies! HAHA!

Well, I did try. Today we did several small bonding sessions, Jack was better and would want to snuggle pretty much right away for most of them, but Vivian, I think she's done with him, and she seems just unhappy. Poor thing. I will stop bonding until I know what my next move will be. I'll keep you updated!

Thanks for the vibes! 
So today I went to SaveABunny so Marcy could watch and see what is going on.  Of course ,for the first hour Vivian and Jack  were gems - I'm sure just to make me look freaky and psychotically anxious. (okay, so maybe I am, but they don't have to make it sooo obvious!)

I learned so much today! (on may way home I typed as much as I could remember into my blackberry)  I mean there is still no gaurantee this will work but Marcy said that there are enough positive signs that really it's too early in the game to know for sure.  They do have issues, but  they might be able to work out these issues.  So she had great information and advice that I am going to learn from and follow!

I would have loved to have just left them there and paid her to bond them for me, but she made a good point that this is a great opportunity for me learn about  what normally happens (I've been rather lucky,  I'll get to that later)  and try and work through it.  That way I can also share it with you so we can all learn. (note though - that what may work for this bonding experience may not be what will work for yours.) 

So here is the info and tips that I will learn from and  use from this point on:

1. Bunnies that will fight doesn't equate an unworkable situation or even necessarily mean it will be long haul to success: I  learned  that I really have been lucky when it has comes to my bonding experiences before.  No SERIOUS fights really except for with Rucy and Bailey.  I've dealt with aggressive body language, lunges, threats, chasing, hair pulling and nips but the all out fighting was only with Rucy and Bailey, and that just ended not working. So with Vivian and Jack, I need to make sure to be careful to not equate the more serious aggression signs with it not being able to  work.  Obviously Markus's bunnies also prove that,  but when it's your own bunnies, it can be harder to see that at the moment.

2. Relax!!  (Do drugs and alcohol): JUST kidding!  Though a glass of wine is a great recommendation for me.  Marcy completely understood that when it is our own bunnies, this bonding thing can make us very nervous which can affect the bonding.  I completely know that and understand that.  I advise people to settle down all the time.  I just didn't do that myself. I notice that I can become totally freakafied regardless of what I know.  So I will have a glass of wine, and/or just settle my mind before bonding. She even suggested to just try and pretend that they are not my bunnies.  Basically just try to get the heck out of my own way with all the nerves.   Obviously still be alert, but don't get overly worked up.   That will really be a big one.

3. Use the water-bottle.  She did say this doesn't always work for some bunnies. Some don't care, and they just get soaked. But it seemed to work though when Marcy did this with Jack and Vivian. I just have to calm my nerves... and aim correctly.   When I did it, you would have thought I was blind and had coordination issues.   It was ridiculous - like "Watch out for the geek with the water bottle!  She'll squirt anything and everything except for what she was supposed to be aiming at!"   So....yeah...I have to settle down and get better with that.

4.  Just go slower from this point with these two, and of course, as I already know settle on a good note.  So to just try an hour a day.  For the most part they do well within an hour.   A good note can just be them hanging out near each other - they don't necessarily have to be grooming etc.  I did know this, but I needed a reminder.   She reminded me that this will also  help with MY stress level, and I know in turn that will help the whole process.

5. Try housing them away from each other only because  - Jack  seems to do better, at least right now,  when he is back in his own place. He is more relaxed.   Plus he is not bothering Vivian as he tries to get through the pen, and since Vivian makes any place her home very quickly that having tthe pens near each other could  be making them more territorial.   With THESE two, having them next to each other in the pen, may be not helping at this point.  So for now we are just going keep them separated  between bondings.  But if this arrangement seems to escalate the mounting (Jack not being used to her near him and seeing her as a novelty again), then I'll go back to having them next to each other. 

6. That I'm not stuck if this really ends up not working out:    Having Marcy to help me through this and knowing we will work out a solutuion one way or another is the BIGGEST stress reliever. Though I am sure I could stress her out with my million and one questions -  however,  you would never know it.  She was very patient  - all the while juggling other adopters, volunteers and  the "stressed out geek with poor aim"   All she asks is that I give it a fair try before throwing in the towel.  So that's what I am going to do.

Oh,  and there is something else I learned today.  That bowing of the head from bunnies can be just a non-threatening greeting. I knew that it could mean a passive request or a dominant demand for grooming, depending on the rest of the body language, but it is also seen as a greeting.  There were some potential adopters there meeting bunnies and this subject came up.

Well, that's it for now.  I'll keep you updated.

I'm just realising how lucky I am to be doing 1st time bunny bonding whilst you are bonding Jack & Vivian. Having this active thread and current feedback is really helpful.   Though specific to your situ, still relevant to anyone bonding their crew.  No#2 is a goody. Maybe I'll pour myself a port or scotch tonight. It is getting chilly in the bathroom.   I had to laugh though, with your:

When I did it, you would have thought I was blind and had coordination issues. It was ridiculous - like "Watch out for the geek with the water bottle! She'll squirt anything and everything except for what she was supposed to be aiming at!"

....and the earlier reference to wine - haha. Blind and un-co huh?!
Lunge, nip, squirt, swig, repeat!

Good to know about the head lowering! It certainly looks like a shy "Hello" sometimes. 

Posted By BinkyBunny on 04/26/2009 09:01 PM

 I need to make sure to be careful to not equate the more serious aggression signs with it not being able to  work.  Obviously Markus's bunnies also prove that,  but when it's your own bunnies, it can be harder to see that at the moment.

That is very true.  I do think that Maryann's aggression actions were a bit more... bold? than others though.  I had just about reached the point though of throwing them both into an X-pen, putting a lid on it and going out to see a movie and let them work it out.