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Forum DIET & CARE Hand feeding 2 newborns, home formula?

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    • cornflakes
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        Since the mother abandoned her kits (2 died on site, 2 I took and rescued), I’m hand feeding the kits.

        They are about 5 or 6 days old now.  I’ve had them for 3 days.  I think they are losing some weight but still

        moving around actively throughout the day and during feeding time.  I looked up all kinds of homemade formulas

        and I have some questions (maybe my formula is lacking):

        1)  some people said add egg yolk, does this mean ONLY the yellow part or can I add the whole egg into the formula?

        2) I’ve seen corn syrup or honey…..can I use either or?  What is this for? Is it supposed to make it sweet and tasty?

        3) How much formula to water?  I’m not too sure if my formula is too watery?  The container said 15 g of powerded milk

        to 120 mL of water.  Does that sound about right?  Can I add more powdered formula or a bit less water to make it

              slightly thicker and maybe more nutrient packed?

        4) How often should I feed them? Every 6 hours or 8?  I feed them twice a day ……I’ll keep you updated on how they do….

        I don’t have access to any goat’s milk so I’m using something I got from the local animal clinic for puppies and kittens.


      • jerseygirl
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          I don’t have experience but hope I can point you toward some helpful articles.
          This one seems pretty in depth. Dana Krempels is pretty well respected around house rabbit community.

          http://www.bio.miami.edu/hare/orphan.html

          Regarding egg, it’s only the yolk that enriches the milk with fat and protein. The above article suggest using cream though.

          What is the formula brand? If be interested in looking up the nutritional profile.

          Ideally, trying to get the mother feeding them or fostered by another lactating rabbit would give them their best chance. Have you tried holding the kits up under the mother?


        • cornflakes
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            Ok, so I have been hand feeding them now for about 4 days i think. I’m trying a mix of powdered milk (klassemil is the brand name but i think it’s not well-known), water, egg yolk, a bit of heavy cream, and corn syrup. I try to feed them twice to three times a day (morning 7:40am (shorter), 5:30pm (longer) and a little again at 11:30pm. Their bellies have a slight bulge as I always check for that but they don’t seem to be growing as fast as I’d like. One of them is definitely bigger than the other…but both still seem small. The other issue is the wet milk that drips out from the syringe and their mouth during feeding gets all over their bodies….their fur gets wet and the fur on their arms and legs is also clumped and looks wet…i try my best to dry it off, i always cover them with paper towels (in a roll) when I feed them, but somehow they seem to just get wet….even after a couple days, the fur still doesn’t look like its clean and dry ….the other thing is
            it looks like one of them urinated on the other so he’s all yellowish and is fur looks even more uneven (clumps and looks wet).

            Is there some way to dry them off or clean them up? I’m wondering if that dried milk on their fur could develop any bacteria or something that might not be good for them?

            Unfortunately I do not have any immunoglobin or collastrum? Now I’m concerned they might get diarrhea….i rub their underside with a moist paper towel ball and it seems like they are urinating (saw it a couple times…a steady stream from one), but looks awfully messy down there….their legs are yellow and the fur looks wet or clumped even if it’s not wet.


          • jerseygirl
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              Go nice and slow for feeding so the milk doesn’t escape their mouths too much. are you using a syringe? Eye dropper?

              You could dry cleaning up with pure cornstarch. A dry-bath technique used for older rabbits. You rub it into the fur then comb out.
              Otherwise maybe a soft cloth and warm water? Something like a microfibres cloth. I’d avoid using any soap.

              As they grow and become more active, they’ll begin to clean themselves up.

              This article is worth reading through in advance, just I case they do develop diarrhoea. You’ll want to move very quickly if that happens. Fingers crossed it won’t!
              http://www.bio.miami.edu/hare/squirts.pdf

              ETA: any chance you can get them on the mums teat? They won’t get anything at first but the suckling will stimulate her milk production. She may not take up feeding them but a few time in her might give them colostrum and the vital gut flora they’ll need.


            • jerseygirl
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                Here is where you can contact Dana Krempels for advice if you wish.
                http://www.allexperts.com/user.cgi?m=4&expID=35789&catID=703


              • cornflakes
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                  Yes, using a syringe. I try to insert the syringe a millimeter or two into their mouth by the side (avoiding the teeth) and put droplets in there…or just let them suck as much as they can.

                  I can try to take the mother home with me and see if she might allow feeding, but it has been about 5 days. Do you think the mother will recognize them or know it’s her babies or will that time apart make it difficult to get her to feed them now?

                  When I think about it now, I probably should have taken the mom with me just to make sure and see if she would feed them relocated in a safer place (my home). At the pen they were in, the house she made had been disturbed by chickens and she was evening fighting with some of them at one point. Usually the chickens never bother the rabbits or the babies, but this was the first time i saw the chicken actually fighting or pecking at her. The babies were always scattered and I had to find them and try to build the home again. After about 3 days I thought she was no longer caring for them because the nest was not made anymore and the babies were just scattered looking like they would die anytime.

                  Do you think I can take the mom home with me and put the babies in the nest box and see if she will feed them? Or will she attack them? Eat them? etc? Last case scenario….would it be possible somehow for me to restrain her with force to allow the babies to suck on her teats? I think the babies would instinctually know to go there for milk, but the mom might not right?

                  How does one restrain a rabbit to allow the babies to suck on teats? I mean, they are kicking and trying to escape all the time, so I’d imagine I would have to put on some gloves, maybe use a towel to wrap her up enough to restrain her while leaving enough space for the kits to get to the teats?


                • jerseygirl
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                    Do you think I can take the mom home with me and put the babies in the nest box and see if she will feed them? Or will she attack them? Eat them? etc? Last case scenario….would it be possible somehow for me to restrain her with force to allow the babies to suck on her teats? I think the babies would instinctually know to go there for milk, but the mom might not right?

                    How does one restrain a rabbit to allow the babies to suck on teats? I mean, they are kicking and trying to escape all the time, so I’d imagine I would have to put on some gloves, maybe use a towel to wrap her up enough to restrain her while leaving enough space for the kits to get to the teats?

                    Sorry! I has thought the mum was yours and at home with you.
                    Gosh, its such a catch-22 situation. Removing her may cause stress that inhibits her ability to produce milk. On the other hand, she might get adequate diet and time alone when with you. Mums dont stay with the babies 24/7 and they need unlimited food with good protein (pellets and hay) while they are nursing their young.

                    If they feed from her, so much the better but it is likely she wont want anything to do with them. You will not want to leave her alone with them.

                    Restraining was the only way I thought you’d be able to do this that would be safe for the babies. So someone holding her and someone else holding the babies under her on their backs. I did read the mum could be held on her back and babies placed on her belly. I’m very wary of that approach as it is very stressful for an adult rabbit to be on their back and they can kick out quite strongly. Putting the babies at risk and the mum could injure herself also. They do might do better being held with the back against our body, hand supporting them under the bottom, so not completely all the way upside down on their back.

                    You sound as if you are doing a good job so do not stress if you cannot bring the mum. In the future, I think you will need to treat the bunnies with an anticoccidant as a precaution. Especially if they and the mum had been in with chickens. Coccidia is a common parasite and treatable. You wouldnt need to worry about this until they are weaned I think…


                  • cornflakes
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                      I have already brought her home, and keeping a close eye on them. I have a feeling that she might not be able to re-take them as well as it has been about 5-6 days already. I was hoping they’d be able to get her milk because I’m worried about the lack of good flora gut bacteria and they may be succumbing to early signs of diarrhea right now. Everyday when I go to feed them and rub their underbody and genitalia, it looks very messy there…like a curry color…i was hoping it might just be urine that splashed all over but it looks like some of it might be mixed with solids.

                      Today they are still moving really well. They are searching the box and moving around even trying to come out at times. Yesterday one of the two had their eyes open for the first time. I think it has been about 10 or 11 days now since they were born (but I’ve only kept them with me for i think 6 days now).

                      I read about trying to get fresh cecotropes from another rabbit? Maybe I can feed them that or try to mix it in the formula? I heard that’s good for them. But I don’t know exactly which one is the best cecotropes to get….maybe the ones that look as new or fresh as possible…i don’t think i can get it directly from the rabbit’s anus as I read that was the best way…it sounds too difficult and time consuming.

                      I really don’t have any other options… i don’t think i can force feed them either because I live alone and nobody can help me hold the mother rabbit still. She’s not a calm one….she runs for her life when trying to catch her and when I did catch her, she shrieked like pig…it was so loud it scared me.


                    • cornflakes
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                        i read that the cecotropes should look like grapes ….but most of the ones i see left by my other rabbit im keeping with me now for a year are mostly round cecotropes, not black and wet, but look on the dry-ish side. Should I pick some of those up and blend them in the milk formula anyways just for good measure? Surely some of those cecotropes must be good for them than nothing at all?


                      • Roberta
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                          Cecals do look like little dark clusters of grapes and a nursing mother will usually produce extra for babies. Right now if she is still producing milk she needs unlimited food greens, hay and pellets. My concern is if she has not nursed in 5 days she may no longer be able to lactate. Once their eyes start to open they will start to explore and experiment. At the bottom of your hay bag will be fine pieces of chaff, put those in a dish with low sides and sprinkle some pellets around their area. Make sure mummy bunny has a good feed a couple of times a day even if she isn’t lactating it will cause herbto produce extra cecals. When you see them put them in the babies area, they would normally forage about and find the ones mum has left so being minutes fresh really doesn’t matter, a few hours old is fine. You are most likely to find them in the morning.


                        • Lee
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                            Cecotropes dry up really quickly, and I believe healthy rabbits eat them straight out of the anus, so it may be hard to get them unless you are watching your rabbit for them.

                            Not sure whether this is good for the babies or not though, sorry.

                            Great work looking after the little ones. I am keeping my fingers crossed that they pull through.


                          • jerseygirl
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                              I read about trying to get fresh cecotropes from another rabbit? Maybe I can feed them that or try to mix it in the formula? I heard that’s good for them.

                              I think they are too young. The article I posted first recommends doing this around 2 1/2 – 3 weeks of age. By this time, the may even eat it whole.

                              Keep mum on good diet and you hopefully you’ll see her produce excess cecals.

                              So the mum has been ok alone with the babies? Does she have somewhere she can get away from them when she needs too?

                              They sound like they’re right on schedule with opening their eyes.


                            • Roberta
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                                Where are you located cornflakes ?


                              • cornflakes
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                                  Thanks everyone for the replies, I brought the mom home and as suspected, she wouldn’t or didn’t accept the babies again. So I returned the mom rabbit back. I’m working at a school overseas (korea) and they have some rabbits there but nobody really takes care of them, so I started to do that about 5 years ago since I started work here. I’ve had lots of experiences and stories now and have been learning a lot about rabbits just from taking care of them and going through all the ups and downs, googling, and asking on forums such as this one.

                                  So the two kits are on their own, the mother option is out now so it’s only back to me. The good news is that they are growing and they are very active and behaving like normal. They are urinating and pooping fine now….whatever that mild diarrhea or curry looking color stain on their fur was, is gone or cleared away…. I tried to get collustrum (?) from a vet but they told me they don’t have that here (nor did they have goat’s milk).

                                  My main concern right now is what to do about their healthy bacteria in the gut? Can they survive and grow with just my home milk formula I’m providing for them as long as they don’t catch any germs or disease? I’m worried that at any point, they might come down sick and have no way of fighting off the sickness because they are not getting the defensive properties that is found in mother’s milk.

                                  I should upload some pics or video clips….just sorry that I’ve been lazy and lately I’m feeling so short on time (the extra hour a day i spend feeding them 3 times a day is hard but i push myself to keep doing it).

                                  When is a good time for me to try and introduce some hard food? I have timothy hay at home (that I provide to my adult rabbit…another rabbit, not related to these babies). I also have some hard pellet food. Should I buy one of those baby rabbit pellets? I saw some that are specialized just for baby rabbits, but not sure if they are ready to eat some? I didn’t keep track of the days, so I’m not exactly sure now how old they are. I think they are about 2 weeks now (or a little over 2 weeks). Do I need to keep hand feeding them the milk up to 6 or 8 weeks? I read somewhere that baby rabbits that are weaned from mother’s milk before 8 weeks is premature and could be problematic for them?

                                  Will weeks 4-8 for example be a mix between me hand feeding them milk and them eating some hard food or hay on their own?


                                • cornflakes
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                                    this pic is from yesterday…both have their eyes open now and really moving a lot during feeding time….they even try to

                                    come out of their nesting box so i now moved them into a tall box so they can’t climb out when im not home.


                                  • cornflakes
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                                      i wrapped them up during feeding and try to pat down their noses often

                                      and try to minimize milk spillage onto their fur….afterwards i will give them

                                      a wet tissue and rub their genitals and belly as well as clean off any

                                      milk …seems to be working 


                                    • jerseygirl
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                                        Oh look! You are doing so well with these two. It certainly must be tiring.

                                        If you have an adult rabbit, you may be able to collect cecatropes from him?
                                        Are you able to get acidophilus capsules? They are sold in pharmacies and health food shops.


                                      • cornflakes
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                                          Oh, what is acidophilus for? Is that the same as collustrum and promotes healthy bacteria in the intestinal system? I think i actually saw that in store in the big city but passed up on it cuz I was only looking for collustrum.


                                        • cornflakes
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                                            also i put a few pieces of timothy hay in the nest and they started to right away nibble on them…i dont know if they actually ate it …but i hope it will be good for them. Yes, I have an adult female with me also but not sure how i can get cecotropes from her. I don’t have the time to watch her and try to snatch them from her directly before she eats them herself. I was hoping i could find some droppings but dont trust if they are fresh enough or safe even….some of the poop laying around sometimes look very hard and dry and others even look like they have mold or something whitish growing on them.


                                          • Roberta
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                                              Babies will graze hay and pellets once their eyes open, it won’t replace their need for the formula at this stage but they start getting use to solid foods very early. All my babies (oops and rescue) shared mums hay, salad and pellets the minute they realised it was food. As I said before, just start leaving a few pellets and pieces of hay or chaff about for them. Be careful of water crocks or bowls as they can fall in and drown, they are remarkably skilled and getting into things they shouldn’t.


                                            • jerseygirl
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                                                That’s good they’re already trying hay. They will probably only nibble things at this stage. I think I saw my rabbit (when she was a baby) eat some of her mothers normal droppings. Maybe she was just curious or there was some benefit in it… I don’t know!

                                                If you can find alfalfa hay, that would be good for them also.

                                                Lactobacillus Acidophilus is a good bacteria that helps with gut health. It’s not naturally found in the rabbit but it’s not harmful for them to have. It is thought to help create the right environment for the other good gut flora to flourish in.


                                              • Roberta
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                                                  It’s good for their little teeth to start nibbling hay early too.
                                                  The acidophilus is suitable to help stabilise gut flora. There are some commercial ones available but the human ones work fine.


                                                • jerseygirl
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                                                    Also, if you offered your adult rabbit a little alfalfa hay, she might produce some excess cecals. It is sometimes called lucern hay.
                                                    It would be a treat for her but it’s not good for adult rabbits to have a lot of this hay. Too high in protein and calcium. It’s great for babies though. : )

                                                    some of the poop laying around sometimes look very hard and dry and others even look like they have mold or something whitish growing on them.

                                                    If it is white & chalky looking, it could be the excess calcium rabbits get rid of through their urine. If more furry, it’s possibly mold which can happen quickly in a humid climate.


                                                  • cornflakes
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                                                      Thanks, good info on all that!
                                                      I just visited a nearby pharmacy and asked if they had lactobacillus acidophilus and they did but they said it wasn’t just on it’s own. It’s one of the ingredients among other ingredients in this particular brand. I wasn’t comfortable without knowing what the other ingredients are so didn’t buy it.

                                                      Is the acidophilus usually sold on its own or is it always mixed into a product with other ingredients? Another product they recommend to me had acidophilus in it but also mostly something called Loperamide. Is anyone familiar with Loperamide? Is that ok to use these capsules to mix into the milk formula or should I stay away from it and only use 100% lactobacillus acidophilus? Other ingredients were: Berberine, Acrinol Hydrate….


                                                    • jerseygirl
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                                                        It is often paired with bifidus something…

                                                        The pets store probably carry a suitable probiotics. Ones for birds is possibly suitable.


                                                      • jerseygirl
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                                                          I just posted this in another thread. I thought you might find it of interest. Its suggesting just to let the babies be around normal rabbit poop as it could be beneficial. So maybe when mine was a baby, she was doing what she was supposed to do!
                                                          (The second link also refers to antibiotics but you’d need to consult with a vet for that. Its to do with wild rabbits also..)

                                                          http://en.allexperts.com/q/Rabbits-…babies.htm

                                                          and 

                                                          http://en.allexperts.com/q/Wild-Ani…tropes.htm


                                                        • cornflakes
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                                                            Update: So the I’m still hand feeding the 2 rabbits now twice a day. I think it has been 3+ weeks now? They are definitely growing and looking better….very active, always trying to jump out of the box…and they seem to recognize my voice or they know when I’m home….they get very active and start looking up at me through the opening of the box cover (i use a towel to cover about 80-85% of the box).

                                                            One thing I have started to notice is there seems to be a bit of wetness in the fur at the corner of their eyes. It might be some water or something coming from their eyes and the fur gets wet. Their noses are dry and not wet or anything, so I hope it’s not serious. I took a couple pics and maybe you can see how the fur around the corner of the eye looks to be a bit wet…I always try to dry it or wipe it after feeding them.

                                                            Any ideas what it might be? Any worries? I did start to leave some timothy hay, alfalfa hay and baby rabbit pellets in the box. You don’t think the hay could be introducing something (bacteria? allergies?)….just curious…i have allergies to the hay myself so that’s why i think that.


                                                          • cornflakes
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                                                            • cornflakes
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                                                              • jerseygirl
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                                                                  You’ve done incredibly well keeping these 2 going. : )

                                                                  Their eyes might be irritated from hay dust perhaps. If it is dusty, you could spray a light mist of water on the fresh hay you put in to keep dust down.

                                                                  It’s hard to say what else it could be, but clear fluid coming from eye is better then opaque.

                                                                  Do the towels have fragrance from washing detergent? That could possibly irritate the eyes also.


                                                                • cornflakes
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                                                                    Thanks! I use fragrance free laundry detergent since I have a sensitivity to fragrances also (makes me sneeze etc). I change the box and blanket once a week. Maybe I will put less hay in next time and see.

                                                                    Yes, I’m really hopeful they’ll make it.

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                                                                Forum DIET & CARE Hand feeding 2 newborns, home formula?